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BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite!

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1 BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:19 pm

Jack


Admin
8-year old Shane and 12-year old Jason are your sons.

Shane and Jason on one of their good days.
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Shane and Jason are about four and a half years apart in age. Jason has always been quiet and well-behaved. He gets into trouble occasionally, but it's rare. He just generally follows the rules.

Shane is different. Shane is a bundle of curiosity with a ton of energy to back it up. He's never malicious (except occasionally with his big brothher), but he is very mischievous. Unlike his big brother, he has a hard time remembering, much less following, the rules.

Recently, Shane has had a couple of spankings for not being home on time or calling. That was after a couple of mild restrictions and a few swats. Today, he remembered to call, but your phone was in the other room, so he left a voice mail and came home late. When he pointed that out to you (as soon as he saw 'that spanking look' in your eyes), you checked. You pointed out to him that leaving a message isn't the same as getting permission, so he needs to not do that again.

As soon as you say that, Jason, who's been sitting nearby, doing homework, explodes.

He reminds you that, when he was 'about Shane's age', he got spanked for doing exactly what Shane did today. When he reminds you, you do remember it, though you're pretty sure he was older than Shane is now (though not a lot older).

The honest truth is, for Jason, that was a major violation, but for Shane, it's an improvement. You're trying to think of how best to phrase that, but are distracted by Jason calling you a 'mean old hypocrite," pointing out that you're never fair to him, you always loved Shane better, and that he hates you.

He then knocks his school books off the table, stomps to his room, ignoring your calls to come back, and slams his door hard enough to make some of the art on your wall shake.

Shane is now standing nearby, trying to be Ninja, but mostly succeeding in looking scared.

What next?

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2 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Sun Jan 20, 2013 6:27 pm

John Boy


Sherrif
Difficulty, I need to be fair, but at the same time we are talking about two different boys. I need to think more on this one. scratch scratch scratch

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=John+Boy

3 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:24 pm

David M. Katz


Marshall
I will give Jason some space and calming time.

I will reassure Shane and try to reinforce that I see improvement.

Kids are different and each needs a different approach. That still does not make it seem or appear fair to the kids so I understand Jason being upset.

After Jason is ready to talk, I think the best approach is the truth. I will cover Shane's history and try to get him to see that Shane was improving. Hopefully we can find a situation from Jason's past where he was allowed to escape punishment because he was showing effort.

This situation is difficult but can hopefully be resolved with a lot of talking and some good doses of the truth.


_________________
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4 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:35 pm

db105


Trailboss
John Boy wrote:Difficulty, I need to be fair, but at the same time we are talking about two different boys. I need to think more on this one. scratch scratch scratch

I'm with David. They are different boys and being fair does not equal treating them exactly the same. I think Jason is old enough to understand it: I'll talk with him and remind him that, while I expect both of them to do their best at school, my grades expectations are different, because they are not the same person. I'll also take the opportunity to praise him for his behavior and maturity, and tell him how much I rely on him, and that I love him very much, no more but certainly no less than his brother.

I'll also try to spend more time with Jason.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=Danny

5 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:52 pm

Iconoclast


Trailboss
If I carry a cell phone that accepts messages (either text or voice) that implies permission if I do not call back and say different!

Iconoclast

6 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:15 am

Padraig


Trailboss
Poor big brother. Poor me.

It's a tough situation. On the one side J has a point, on the other side I can't let the shouting and door slamming go without consequences, for S's sake and for mine. It would be a too bad example for S. But whatever I do it will be behind closed doors.

Even harder, and without knowing the history of J, is the decision to get into his room immediately or to wait. He might need immediate reassurance that he is loved or he might need time and space to calm down.

Is S looking scared because he fears he might get spanked though or by what he learned his big brother is capable of?

7 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:39 am

Jkher


Trailboss
Aw, looks like I'll be spending some time 'splaining stuff. I can't see spanking either boy for a series of misunderstandings though.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=Jkher

8 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:46 am

squarecutter


Sherrif
I am happy with the decision I made with Shane. I am wondering if the decision I made when Jason did this a few years ago was parental inexperience though it seemed right at the time. I was the oldest boy by 3 and a half years and it certainly seemed at the time to my sister and I that our younger brothers got away with more than we did. The folks just seemed a bit more relaxed about things. It could be I overreacted 4 years ago but it was certainly not to show favoritism. The trouble is, people, as children, store up perceived injustices so they become part of them. Somehow Jason and I have to talk this one out. I need to explain to Jason, though not necessarily apologize for, the apparent inconsistency in terms he can understand, I will also remind him who is getting more spankings at the moment. I would also feel sad to see Jason wishing spankings on his little brother though I suppose that is human nature. Rolling Eyes I want him when he has calmed down, to be a big boy and tidy up the things he chucked around. As for Shane He will be told that if he riles Jason about this outburst he is on very low tolerance indeed

9 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:08 am

MemoryMan


Sherrif
I'll take 5 minutes to reassure Shane that he's off the hook - THIS TIME

Then, without leaving Jason steaming for too long I'll go up to his room, sit down and ask him quietly does he REALLY believe I don't love him?

Then we'll take it from there.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=MemoryMan

10 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:49 am

1strappedboy


Sherrif
Holy cow, have I indeed made a dog's breakfast of this or what?

I do have some 'splainin to do on the part of both boys.

On behalf of Jason, I'm reassuring him of my love and explaining the circumstances to him. Hopefully he's mature enough to understand and acknowledge where I was coming from when I dealt with him and why the difference. I will not punish for the outburst but we will discuss it.

As to Shane, he is right to look scared; while it may be an improvement on his part, that really isn't good enough and I've been reminded of this big time. He's getting a spanking of the caliber I gave his brother. They may indeed be 2 different people but we're 1 family and I should be consistent.

11 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:58 am

Stone Man


Marshall
First I assure Shane that we are square and "suggest" he find something quiet and appropriate to do while I take care of Jason.

I'm going to see Jason to find out, from his actions, if I should fallow through now or try again later.

Regardless of when I do deal with Jason he gets a stingoor and a hug (two sure signs I love him still) and then we go from there.

It appears to me that something is bothering my boy other than just this incident with Shane. I need to get to the bottom ( Razz ) of this and then go from there.

Both the boys have grown up with hearing me say "Each to his own needs and capabilities" and do have some idea of what I mean by that. I've always known I have two very different creatures to love and raise, and all the more fun for it for them and me.

12 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:25 am

Kat


Editor Extraordinaire
While it's true that the two boys are different people and, therefore, cannot be treated exactly the same, I have to make sure that I am being consistent and fair. School work is one area in which I'm justified in having different expectations. I don't think the situation in the scenario really is one in which I should have made a distinction between the boys. Of course, I've already spoken, giving Shane a second chance. I can't very well change my mind at this point.

I think Squarecutter made an excellent point: younger kids get away with more because parents tend to relax. I expect that my lenience with Shane was not the result of any careful consideration of the situation, but rather a spontaneous judgement, reflecting a more relaxed attitude.

I doubt Jason will accept that I had sound reasons for my lenience with Shane. I'm going to apologize to him, telling him that I was overly harsh with him, but parenting is a learning experience. I hope I can remind him of a time or two when I was more lenient with him than Shane. I can only offer him assurances of my love and affection, as well as my desire to be fair. My actions will determine whether he believes me. If I do routinely hold him to a different standard, he won't believe me. I will try harder for consistency with the boys.

Kat

13 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:11 pm

1strappedboy


Sherrif
Kat wrote:While it's true that the two boys are different people and, therefore, cannot be treated exactly the same, I have to make sure that I am being consistent and fair. School work is one area in which I'm justified in having different expectations. I don't think the situation in the scenario really is one in which I should have made a distinction between the boys. Of course, I've already spoken, giving Shane a second chance. I can't very well change my mind at this point.

...... I hope I can remind him of a time or two when I was more lenient with him than Shane. I can only offer him assurances of my love and affection, as well as my desire to be fair. My actions will determine whether he believes me. If I do routinely hold him to a different standard, he won't believe me. I will try harder for consistency with the boys.

Kat

I can change my mind and I think this is one of those times that I will. I think this may indeed be the best course of action because the concrete demonstration that I'm willing "to be fair" will impress upon Jason that I do not love one brother more than another. As to Shane, this reminder of my ability to 'be the meanie' may make a more lasting impression.

I find myself in this spot every now and again with my R/L boys; I'm told by Dave that I've "mellowed" a lot compared to how I deal with Jeff and now Ryan. There have been a couple of times that some inconsistency has been pointed out to my by the older 2 and I do use the 'excuse' of parenting being a learning experience for me (which it still IS!!) and they largely accept that.

14 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:56 pm

Kat


Editor Extraordinaire
1strappedboy wrote:I can change my mind and I think this is one of those times that I will.

Perhaps a better choice of words for me would have been I shouldn't change my mind. I would think that after giving Shane a second chance, a change of heart will only exchange one angry, frustrated son for the other. If I spank Shane, he will then feel that I broke my word to him. I expect he will also have hard feelings towards Jason, who, he will think, influenced me.

To me, this is a situation in which I've made a mistake, and I can't rectify it easily. I don't think I should have spanked Jason in the past, if he left a voice mail, thinking in good faith that he was fulfilling my requirements. I can't undo the past, but I can try to be much more careful about setting harsh precedents with Jason that I may rethink later. Just because he's a good kid, he shouldn't suffer harsher punishment when he does lapse.

Kat

15 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:25 pm

1strappedboy


Sherrif
Agreed! Laughing

In all seriousness, when Jon or Dave point out instances where I "came down on them harder" than I do now on Darren, Jeff, and Ry, I always feel a bit of a twinge of guilt. The fact of it is that I DO use the explanation of the 'learning curve'. That, coupled with my own charming upbringing brings me a lot of understanding and forgiveness on their part.

I just could hear an undertone of Dave in Jason's response as he was very aware of 'fairness' in his young teen years being an avid sportsman as he was. He's never (outright) called me a hypocrite, but I sometimes feel as one when they point out lack of consistency. At the end of the day though, I think in order to keep the overall peace Your answer is likely the best option on the table.

D

16 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:40 pm

David M. Katz


Marshall
One of the saddest lessons I have learned as a parent is that you can't unspank a kid. No


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17 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:34 pm

Jack


Admin
I'm a bit late with my answer, but I feel like I made the right decision with Shane - not because he might not have deserved to be in trouble, but because he is making an effort, and is improving.

I think the real problem is that I probably shouldn't have spanked Jason back then. However, it kind of is the same as with grades - if you normally earn straight As, then a C looks bad. If you're barely passing, then a C looks good. Jason is normally a good, obedient kid, who got spanked for breaking a rule. I should have given him a pass and a reminder, and I can't change that I didn't. I think hearing me admit that to him might be enough, but I do need to be more careful to recognize that Jason's little lapses really are little, even if they don't look that way, compared to his normal behavior.

By the way - this was a fictional scenario, but it was based on problems that Mike Reasoner and I have had with our younger siblings, and the feelings both of us have had because of perceived injustices like this.

http://bransomtx.forumotion.net

18 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:47 pm

John Boy


Sherrif
Jack wrote:.

By the way - this was a fictional scenario, but it was based on problems that Mike Reasoner and I have had with our younger siblings, and the feelings both of us have had because of perceived injustices like this.

Add me to your Mike and you list as well. Rolling Eyes Sigh Siblings Mad

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=John+Boy

19 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:51 pm

mahoover


Cowboy
I agree with everyone else that there will be no spanking today, and I need to talk to both boys separately, and what I need to talk to them about.

The one thing I will add to what everyone else is saying is that I need to make it clear to Shane that a voice mail is not sufficient in the future. If he can't get a hold of me, then he needs to be back by the prearranged time. Part of the reason that he is getting off this time is I wasn't clear enough about what is required. In the future, he knows, so if it happens again, he will know what to expect when he gets home.

20 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:35 am

MemoryMan


Sherrif
MemoryMan wrote:I'll take 5 minutes to reassure Shane that he's off the hook - THIS TIME

Then, without leaving Jason steaming for too long I'll go up to his room, sit down and ask him quietly does he REALLY believe I don't love him?

Then we'll take it from there.

Jason has always been quiet and well-behaved. He gets into trouble occasionally, but it's rare. He just generally follows the rules.

Since most responses have tended to be directed at the issue rather than the problem I feel a need to amplify my original response. Jason's outburst is so out of character it seems that some resentment has been simmering below the surface and the latest event has just caused it to boil over.

Society, sadly, is prone to pay attention to the bad and simply take the good for granted. I am wondering if perhaps I have tended to be too ready to punish 'bad' Jason and not show appropriate appreciation of his 'good' characteristics?

In the short term I need to find out what's been bugging him. I'm starting with some gently probing closed questions to try to draw him out and start him talking, then when he does I'M GOING TO LISTEN and show understanding.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=MemoryMan

21 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:03 am

Stone Man


Marshall
MemoryMan wrote:
MemoryMan wrote:I'll take 5 minutes to reassure Shane that he's off the hook - THIS TIME

Then, without leaving Jason steaming for too long I'll go up to his room, sit down and ask him quietly does he REALLY believe I don't love him?

Then we'll take it from there.

Jason has always been quiet and well-behaved. He gets into trouble occasionally, but it's rare. He just generally follows the rules.

... Jason's outburst is so out of character it seems that some resentment has been simmering below the surface and the latest event has just caused it to boil over....

In the short term I need to find out what's been bugging him. I'm starting with some gently probing closed questions to try to draw him out and start him talking, then when he does I'M GOING TO LISTEN and show understanding.

StoneMan wrote: It appears to me that something is bothering my boy other than just this incident with Shane. I need to get to the bottom ( Razz ) of this and then go from there.

I was/am also concerned with Jason's OTT response. Whether it be lack of recognition for his usual good behavior or some other long term annoyance is what I am trying to ascertain.

22 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:22 am

MemoryMan


Sherrif
Stoney; That Razz icon had me misinterpreting you Sad

Stingoors all round I guess Rolling Eyes

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=MemoryMan

23 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:21 am

Stone Man


Marshall
MemoryMan wrote:Stoney; That Razz icon had me misinterpreting you Sad

Stingoors all round I guess Rolling Eyes

Sorry about that, MM. When getting to the "bottom" of something on a spanko site I figured I HAD to put a Razz there or Ivor would have been coming after me. I was indeed being serious... pretty much anyway. Rolling Eyes

24 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:59 am

Jack


Admin
To both Stoney and MM...

While I can't speak for John Boy, I have spoken to Mike on this issue several times, and I still remember some of the problems from my own childhood.

As a kid, I didn't understand it. As a parent, it's easier to see. The simple truth is that it's hard to punish a kid when he's making improvements. It's easy to punish him when he's backsliding. That becomes a problem when both kids are doing '70', but for one it's a 30 percent drop, and for the other, it's a 30 percent improvement.

Let me give you an example, which some of you might have heard before.

When I was in sixth grade, we received the first of those 'six week projects' that the teachers would occasionally cook up to make students life hell. For the first five and a half years of school, I'd brought home straight As. My family didn't care about what was going on in school, as long as that continued. Because of that, and because I'd never had to study, I had no clue how to approach an involved, long-term project like that, and I ended up either not doing much of it, or not at all.

Instead of talking to my teacher (or even me) to find out what the problem was and/or why the grade had dropped, my mom grounded me for six weeks, 'until I could bring the grade up.' Of course, the project was already over, so bringing the grade up was no problem, since we were back to homework that I could do at school then forget about. Because of that, I had the occasional bad grade over the next several years, until I had a teacher in high school who saw what was going on and taught me how to approach the problem.

Five, or maybe six years later, I was old enough to drive, and Satana was in middle school. Satana brought home a report card where her HIGH!!! grade was a 'C' - the same grade for which I'd been grounded six weeks.

Mom's reaction was so over the top that, that night, Satana stole Ralph's van, drove into town to get a friend of hers, then they ran away from home. The next evening, they'd run out of gas and money, and called from a truck stop in freaking Northern Oklahoma. From where we live, that was 350 miles.

I'll spare you the details. I'll spare you all the worry that my mom went through. I'll spare you the circus that occurred to go retrieve them. I'll even spare you the crap that I had to deal with personally about it.

Take what you think is a good guess, then triple it, and you might be in the ballpark.

The best part is when you find out what Mom's reaction was.

She talked to her about how important good grades are.

The woman who grounded me for six weeks for one C, talked to her.

Did I mention that the 'C' which was her high grade was in gym class? How the (expletive deleted) do you make a C in gym?

Fortunately I was already nearly an adult by then, and I had less than 2 years before I moved in with my dad.

Getting back to the scenario, I think you have to talk to Jason and explain that what two different people need might not always be the same thing, and your job as a parent is to help him be the best person he can be. On the other hand, I think it might be a case where you have to start cutting the kid a little slack.

http://bransomtx.forumotion.net

25 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! on Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:36 pm

Stone Man


Marshall
Its easier as an adult/parent/grandparent to understand "each to his own needs and abilities" but quite impossible to explain that acceptably to a child going through it.

26 Re: BOTD 1-21-2012: Hypocrite! Today at 1:50 pm

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