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BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime?

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1 BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:44 am

Jack


Admin
You've recently moved into a new town and a new situation.  While your older children have at least a little experience with the whole thing, your youngest son, Ezra, doesn't.  He's feeling out of place, extremely unhappy, and he's let it be known on a few occasions.

On the other hand, you moved in just across the street and a few houses down from a fellow who has a large family, a big house, with lots of 'toys', and he always seems happy to let other kids hang around.  Among his kids is an 11-year old, Van, who will be in the same class, at the same school as Ezra.  While it wouldn't be fair to say that the two of them became instant best friends, Ezra's experiences and Van's talents lay in different directions, and the two seem to fascinate each other.  They get along well, and Van seems willing to show Ezra the ropes and help him settle in.

Among all the new friends Ezra meets hanging out at that house is Jared, another boy who'll be in the same class, though Jared will be 12 this week, making him almost a year older than Ezra, who only turned 11 over the summer.  It doesn't seem to matter though, and Jared almost seems to be accepting things now.

Van, Ezra, and Jared Assuaging Their Back to School Woes with Fresh-Grilled Hot Dawgs
(all three boys are 11 for the rest of this week)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Now it's Labor Day, and everyone is out enjoying a last bit of summer freedom.  The boys are all across the street, you've been catching up on shopping, and your significant other is out giving your eldest (only) daughter driving lessons.  It seems like you're the first one home, but when you get inside, you hear an unmistakable, boyish giggling coming from Ezra's room.  Since he is not supposed to have company over when you're not home, you head straight back there to tell him off.

You open the door to find him with Van and Jared, which isn't unexpected.  What is unexpected is that you caught them with their pants down... Literally.

It turns out that, like Ezra and his brothers, Van is uncircumcised.  On the other hand, Jared is clipped.  While they've seen each other undressed while changing to use the pool, Ezra's never had a close look at the difference.  The subject came up this afternoon, and it seemed like they'd have time and privacy to do it here -- if you hadn't gotten home early.

The boys are all embarrassed and nervous, especially once you remind Ezra that he's not supposed to have company without an adult home (which seems to surprise the other boys).  As soon as you walked in, they started tripping over themselves, trying to get their clothes up, and have been trying to surreptitiously finish adjusting things while you tried to sort out all the explanations and remind Ezra why you came to his room in the first place.   What's your next step?

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2 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:52 am

ivor


Marshall
I like to think I'd have closed the door and left them to it.

If they don't check each other out now they'll find another opportunity to do so. Plus which I don't want to turn what they are doing into a 'crime' by punishing Ezra or the other two.

An opportunity to remind Ezra about the 'no visitors without an adult' rule (which seems very strange) will arise when his friends have gone home.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=Ivor+slipper

3 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:58 am

squarecutter


Sherrif
I think I'm prepared to be indulgent if this is a one off. If it is clear that Van and Jared were unaware of the rule then I don't have a problem with them. I will

remind Ezra about the rule so that Van and Jared will aware of it for the future as well so they dont end up sharing Ezras consequences if this happens again.

Young boys satisfying their curiosity I also don't want to worry too much about. I want them all back out the house on this fine day

4 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 5:22 am

David M. Katz


Marshall
I understand why I have the no visitors rule. It appears Van and Jared had no knowledge they were violating a rule.

I do not want Ezra (or the other boys) thinking that their curiosity was a crime.

I will feign needing Ezra's help in the garage and ask his friends to excuse us for a minute. I will explain AGAIN to Ezra why the rule is in place and offer alternative suggestions as to where they could have hung out. My explanation will probably be given with a couple of stingors. Hopefully Ezra will also hear me to explain to him that there was nothing wrong with the boys being curious and doing some comparisons.


_________________
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.
http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=David+M.+Katz

5 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:04 am

MemoryMan


Sherrif
I'm quite relaxed about the boys doing what - er - eleven year old boys do.  Since I bulldozed in I can't say much about their being circumspect with such activities.

Regarding the no visitors rule - that comes from the old house and was first put in place when Ezra was younger.

He's come to a new neighbourhood and been lucky enough to make some friends quickly and to hang around at their place.  Is he going to say "You can't come in" when they call?  ..... Come on, get real.

He's let them in and they haven't taken the house apart, so when they've gone I'll be reminding Ezra of the old rule and then we'll work out an age appropriate modification acceptable to us both.

Red faces today, but no red cheeks.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=MemoryMan

6 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:17 am

Jack


Admin
MemoryMan wrote:He's come to a new neighbourhood and been lucky enough to make some friends quickly and to hang around at their place.  Is he going to say "You can't come in" when they call?  ..... Come on, get real.
I agree with you on this point in theory. In practice, the BOTD suggests (doesn't flat out state, but that was my fault) that Ezra was at Van's house when you left, so it at least doesn't seem like a case of Van and friend coming to call, but of Ezra bringing them over.

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7 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:34 pm

1strappedboy


Sherrif
Oh, my! Embarassed 

Being this age and 'caught with one's pants down' is mortifying beyond words for most kids!  I think that will serve as sufficient punishment unto itself.

A couple things though; first and foremost I should have knocked and not barged in.  If I demand respect, I must give it otherwise I can expect (rightly) to one day hear the word "hypocrite" hurled in my direction.  Next, given that Ezra is making friends and settling in when he has been heretofore miserable I think it's time to modify the rule and be grateful that he is settling in.

As to the 'exploration' thing, I have no crisis with that whatsoever.  Boys this age will 'do what comes naturally' and making an issue of it will lead to nothing good.  

It's interesting to think back to my small town and the 'clubhouse'; parents had to know what we were doing in there yet they left us alone.

8 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:01 pm

kalico


Sherrif
like the rest of you it seems harmless and I can understand curiosity so on that front ....I really should have knocked and let myself be known so shame on me if I didn't like what I seen.

As for the no friends rule Im afraid young mister Ezra knows better and from what jack just posted ....I think a spanking is earned on his part but it can wait till later when we are alone. After we have taken care of this then Ezra and I can talk about adjusting the rule if I feel he is responsible now or not.




hugs kal

9 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:27 pm

John Boy


Sherrif
Hmmm, I think this is a boys will be boys situation, but Ezra knew the rules of having friends over, I will explain that to the other boys and send them home, maybe even giving a little update on my expectations when the boys come in the future.

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=John+Boy

10 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:54 pm

Stone Man


Marshall
As the boys scramble to cover-up, I'll let them know that only one of them is in trouble because only one of them knows the house rule about no visitor's allowed here unless there is a parent home (and aware) of the guests.

I will tell Ezra that we need to talk when they are finished and Van and Jared have headed home.

I'm wondering how that statement will affect their explorations?

11 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:54 pm

sparky


Wrangler
My next step is to excuse myself and to leave them alone, closing the door behind me.

But, tonight, at bedtime, Ezra and I will be having a little chat.  I will begin by explaining that all boys are naturally curious about these things and that there is nothing wrong with what they were doing.

However, the rule about no visitors allowed without an adult on the premises is a good rule and is there for safety reasons, among  other things.  He could have asked to have his friends spend the night on a sleep-over but he didn't.  And surely there are other places they could have gone.  He is simply not allowed the run of the house, inviting whoever he wants in, whenever he wants.  Eleven years old is too young for this kind of responsibility.

Over my lap, please, Ezra.

12 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:37 am

Jack


Admin
As an active parent, I have to admit I'm not always great about knocking and waiting. Sometimes it's a situation where the boys are supposed to already be in bed, and there's a light on. You don't want to risk waking them, in case they fell asleep with the light on, so you just enter. Embarassed

In this occasion, when you know the boy is already breaking a rule, you might not want to knock and wait. Part of parenting is catching your kids doing things they shouldn't be doing, so you can correct them and help them understand the reason for the rules. Of course, it can also lead to situations like this.




Those of you who follow the Spankorama might have guessed that this is why Ezra was our first entrant this month. I had planned on making it a BOTD extra, but I wasn't sure how to go about it, so I contacted David. This is most of the e-mail I sent him (slightly edited).

Ezra Jentzen, who is our new neighbor across the street and down a couple of houses, got spanked yesterday. He's their youngest boy, 11-years old (just after 4 July), and in the same class as Van and Jared.

Officially he got spanked because the three of them were in his house when no one else was home, and he's not supposed to have company over without an adult home.

The thing is, his mom literally caught the three of them with their pants (and undies) down. Like Van, Ezra is uncircumcised. Jared is clipped. While they've changed in the back yard together, that's not really a good chance to check out the differences. They suit out for gym, but don't shower, so they never take their underpants off. Apparently the subject came up yesterday, and they decided to check each other out.

The boys told me most of this. Jared was pretty nervous about his mom finding out (apparently thinking it might get him spanked). He apparently talked to Ashley (his 13-year old bro), who came and talked to me. I assured him (them) that their mom had never said anything about it to me, that I don't see anything wrong with it, so I wasn't going to lie to her, but I saw no reason to mention it.

The thing is, Van and Jared were sent home, but while they were getting dressed, Ezra was told to leave his clothes down, because he was going to get spanked for having company with no adult home. That really doesn't sound like how their Dad told me discipline is normally handled. Also, Van and Jared seemed kind of upset, and part of that might be nervousness and embarrassment, but I also think she was a bit... upset, over finding them in that position. Also, both boys obviously were scared of getting spanked, but also guilty that Ezra got spanked, and they didn't. Both of them assured me they didn't know Ezra wasn't supposed to have company, so I don't see that they did anything wrong.


I don't want to seem genderist (wouldn't 'sexist' imply you discriminate on people's sexual interest, not their gender?) or misogynistic , but women seem to be more bothered by this than men do. I guess it might be because women don't have that one little thing men do, and if two women are interested in comparing sizes, they don't really even have to take their shirts off. Also, we've talked before about how a certain type of mom tends to get hysterical in some situations (when Dad's have that reaction, it tends to be anger, which is similar, but Mom's screech more - maybe because of their higher voices).

Anyway, I have talked to Tony Jentzen since then. Ezra did get spanked, and Tony admits that he really shouldn't have been, by their standard discipline method. While Ezra was officially spanked for having company without supervision, Tony is pretty sure that his 'open minded, free spirited' wife was mostly over reacting to catching the boys like that.

As for Van and Jared, I explained to them that they can't be held responsible for rules they don't know about. Now that they do know, they can help Ezra avoid future trouble by following that rule.

I also talked to Van alone, later. Since he has his own room, I asked why he couldn't have just stayed here. It turns out that all the boys are somewhat less than complete in respecting each others privacy. Van didn't seem to complain about it, but he does keep it in mind. I pointed out to him that, in the future, if he needs privacy and quiet for... oh, a long board game or something, he can ask to use one of the guest rooms or our upstairs gaming room.

I think he's a little young to have really taken the hint, but he'll probably remember it later. In the meantime, I'll probably suggest the boys work a little harder at knocking.

http://bransomtx.forumotion.net

13 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:44 am

Stone Man


Marshall
Thanks for the more complete background story. From the way the scenario was set, I was left wondering if an over reaction (IMHO if it was exploration related) had taken place.

The easiest way of explaining why most men (Dads) wouldn't have been bothered by the boys explorations is that they had done their own exploring those many long years ago.

14 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:26 am

Kat


Editor Extraordinaire
I agree with Ivor's take on the situation, and I'm sorry that in the real world, Ezra was punished. I also feel compelled to say that what most parents once considered childish curiosity can now provoke some pretty extreme reactions in people who seem outwardly normal. I read just yesterday that in Texas, which is where both Jack and I live, that a 10-year-old girl is being charged with sexual assault for "playing doctor" with a four-year-old boy. She was only 9 at the time the incident occurred. Perhaps my memory is at fault when I claim that during my own childhood people would have taken a more liberal view of the incident, but the parents I knew wouldn't have dreamed of involving the police. They might have explained to the little girl that it was inappropriate for her to play doctor with a child so much younger, but that's where the matter would have ended. Maybe the proliferation of stories about teenagers being charged with child pornography for exchanging photographs of themselves or being charged with statutory rape when high school seniors have consensual sex with high school freshmen or children of very tender years being charged with sexual assault affected the mother's judgement. She's probably seeing a threat where none exists, but I don't have too much difficulty understanding why she might feel threatened. We live in an era in which religious extremism manages to inject itself into the political process and one in which ambitious and overreaching prosecutors are far more concerned with convictions than justice.

Kat

15 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:42 am

Jack


Admin
While I never got caught (there was one instance where we should have been caught, and I'm now convinced the adult knew what was going on and let us 'get away' with it, almost all of my friends and I were morally certain we'd be spanked for doing what the three boys here were doing.

To me, it seems like in the same time homosexuality has become more 'acceptable' things like this, the incident you describe, and even the general acceptance of nudity (showering after gym class for instance) have become less accepted. Before you start typing your response, I'm not saying the two things are linked (at least not directly). Both sets of changes probably come from the same general shift in society's attitude, though I'm not prepared to suggest what.

The most amazing thing about the situation you mentioned is that, just 20 years ago, when my son/nephew Tommy was 4, his cousin (Ralph's daughter's son), Chad was 8. It was discovered that the two of them were giving each other oral pleasure. CPS was alerted, but it was determined that there was no crime, because they were too young for criminal intent!

For that matter, I've talked before about how my cousin, Darren and I, are about 3 years and 6 weeks apart. According to the law at the time, that meant it was perfectly acceptable for us to have oral sex 46 weeks out of the year, and the other 6 weeks, I was committing a felony (okay, it wasn't 'perfectly acceptable' because of the sodomy laws back then, but you know what I mean).

As for the parents who involved the police... It's my firm belief that many people don't know the law well enough. They're scared that if they don't report something like the incident you describe, they'll be charged and CPS will take all their children away. In the same way, because of one or two court or CPS cases, I've had people try to tell me it's illegal to spank your children (despite the fact that our D.A. once admitted to me that he not only spanked his kids, but he'd once left bruises, after the boys had been caught shoplifting).

http://bransomtx.forumotion.net

16 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:07 am

Kat


Editor Extraordinaire
Jack wrote:To me, it seems like in the same time homosexuality has become more 'acceptable' things like this, the incident you describe, and even the general acceptance of nudity (showering after gym class for instance) have become less accepted.  Before you start typing your response, I'm not saying the two things are linked (at least not directly).  Both sets of changes probably come from the same general shift in society's attitude, though I'm not prepared to suggest what.
I think the increased support for marriage equality, which was preceded by the Supreme Court's decriminalization of all forms of private, consensual sex, i.e., "sodomy", threatens the religious extremists. These are the people who are always mentioning some sort of sinister "homosexual agenda", but who are busily attempting to implement their own agenda, which is the elimination of all forms of sexual expression except for procreative intercourse between married heterosexual couples. They are more obsessed with sex than the Puritan and Separatist colonists of New England were.

Kat

17 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:56 pm

kalico


Sherrif
Jack wrote:
, but women seem to be more bothered by this than men do. I guess it might be because women don't have that one little thing men do


scratch  I really don't believe its that...yes we are curious at least those that didn't have older brothers anyway.....
I believe its more we are taught from an early age as girls that our private area is just that private.....until our marriage bed.
Those of you who are dads to girls and those of you who have sisters know what Im talking about and you also know we have different rules for male/female.

so as moms that's how we were raised and when we have boys I guess treat it the same. I just caught Tristan and Hannah naked and looking at each other not along ago this summer, they were changing from their swim suits. I didn't really think nothing of it but I guess from now on I should have them change seperatly now that they are 8. to me they are like bro/sis, I've been watching Tristan sense he was 6 mo old so I really didn't think anything of it.

aww...poor Ezra, to bad dad wasn't the one to catch him!!!



hugs kal

18 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Jack


Admin
Kat, I agree with what you said 100%, but I don't think that's the root cause. It seems to me that what you mentioned comes more from the same cause - maybe it's just that, after the sixties and 'free love' we became more open about sex, which drew more attention to it, both positive and negative, where it used to be ignored?

Kal, the way I was raised (basically poor, but as a Southern gentleman), same sex exposure was fine, but anything that reeked of sexual or mixed gender wasn't. For instance, when I was 9, one of my closest friends was female. I wasn't allowed to spend the night at her house, even though I would have slept with her little brother. I was, however, allowed to sleep with my friends who had sisters, so I'm not sure what the actual difference was.

As for Tristan and Hannah, I don't see the real harm, as long as they understand all the implications (at that age, basically just that they don't want to tell people, do it except in private, or do it with most other people).

http://bransomtx.forumotion.net

19 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:27 pm

1strappedboy


Sherrif
I think Jack's quite right regarding the it's ok to expose one's self as long as it was in a non sexual manner. We were all ok in the locker room and as country kids we skinny dipped and no one said or did a thing. BUT if we had been caught "fooling around", all hell would have broken loose.

I still wonder though, whether or not our dads just 'turned a blind eye' towards our "clubhouse activities". Since we were relatively discreet and didn't scandalize our mothers I think they let us relatively alone. I have no doubt whatsoever that had there been a 'problem' one of our dads would have raided/closed the clubhouse with extreme prejudice!

20 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:12 am

squarecutter


Sherrif
How do you think Jareds parents might react if they knew. From what I've seen here they seem fairly sensible people

21 Re: BOTD Extra: 4 Sep - What Crime? on Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:39 pm

Jack


Admin
I honestly don't know. Jared and Ashley seemed kind of worried, but I have the feeling they wouldn't face anything worse than a discussion. (Of course, for 12 and 13-year olds boys, a discussion of that type might be enough to fear on it's on). Like Dmitri and I have both mentioned, I think this is the kind of thing that kids think of as 'naughty' but that parents tend to turn a blind eye towards.

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