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BOTD Extra 9 Oct 2014: Wind Burn or Paddle Burn?

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Jack


Admin
Recently, you've started watching the sons of a very old friend of yours.  You and David have known each other for over forty years, and were whupped together when you were young.  Furthermore, when his older children (from his first marriage) used to spend time at your house, sometimes with him, he had a chance to see how you handled them, and you did spank some of those boys.  

Ethan and Aidan will soon be starting to school with some of your boys, but right now, they're staying with you during the day, while you're all awaiting their acceptance.  Both boys are extremely ADHD - both energetic and impulsive.  One of the reason their parents asked you to watch them is that they need someone who will be firm and consistent, but fair and understanding with them.

Yesterday, they asked if they could go bike riding.  You thought about it a bit and told them 'no'.  There are bikes they could use, but your kids are still at school.  You just fill like it's not a good idea for them to be riding around during school hours.  And honestly, because they're not familiar with your neighborhood, and they are very impulsive, you don't quite trust them, out on their own, not to get lost or something.

Today, you leave them with one of your adult sons, Bobby, while you finish your shopping.  On your way home, you turn a corner and see...
Ethan - 12 and Aidan - 10
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You stop to send them home, then follow.

When you all arrive, they rush to tell you that they'd asked Bobby, and he'd said it's okay.  You remind them that you'd very specifically told them yesterday that it was not okay.  As a matter of fact, you feel like it's disobedience.  They protest that they hadn't known you meant the whole time.  You point out that your (first) reason specifically said, 'while the other boys were in school'.  

They can't really argue with that.

Further, when you ask them, they admit that they'd get in trouble at home, if Dad told them no, and they went and asked Mom.

You don't want to be too strict on them, and you'd planned on giving them minor corrections while they learned the rules.  On the other hand, they know you're in charge, and that they're expected to mind you.  Do you just need to spell things out for them, is it time for the introduction between your hand and their bottoms, or should you jump straight to the paddle your own boys would be getting in this situation?


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Iconoclast


Trailboss
Ethan and Aidan asked Bobby, who was in charge of them, if they could go bike riding. Bobby said they could, therefore they could!

If I did not want them to go bike riding, today then I should have told Bobby.

In this world of too many rules the boys need to know to keep asking until they get a "yes"!

Iconoclast

MemoryMan


Sherrif
All those doubts in my mind causing me to say "No" yesterday -- but how clearly and emphatically did I communicate them?

Iconoclast wrote:Ethan and Aidan asked Bobby, who was in charge of them, if they could go bike riding.  Bobby said they could, therefore they could!

If I did not want them to go bike riding, today then I should have told Bobby.


Iconoclast


ditto

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Jack


Admin
Iconoclast wrote:In this world of too many rules the boys need to know to keep asking until they get a "yes"!

Icono, you have the ability to take something good and generalize it until it's ridiculous.

Yes, being persistent is often a good trait.

HOWEVER, do you know what I call an employee who comes to me for something, then goes to one of my store mangers for permission, after I've told him no?

Fired.


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Jack


Admin
MemoryMan wrote:All those doubts in my mind causing me to say "No" yesterday -- but how clearly and emphatically did I communicate them?

According to the scenario, you told them they couldn't ride bikes while the other boys were in school.


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kalico


Sherrif
I think it's time for them to feel my hand and at the end a couple paddle swats so they understand that if they try something like this again then they wont be so lucky to get your hand.....



hugs kal

David M. Katz


Marshall
A couple of swats should easily redirect them.


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AFinch


Sherrif
For me, it would depend on whether I made myself clear yesterday that they aren't to go bike riding during school hours, or whether they could have thought I honestly meant just for yesterday.

As a 10 or 12, I often asked if I could go swimming, or to the mall, or to watch TV. If the answer was "no", I assumed that meant now, or today, and not forever. I'd then ask the next day, and sometimes be told yes, and sometimes no.

If that's the situation here, then the boys were left in Bobby's charge, they asked, he said yes, not a problem, at least in kid think. If I was very clear yesterday that I meant EVER, they're getting paddled. That would be willful disobedience. If it's the former, I'm going to talk to them, and make my intentions VERY clear, including the "If dad says no, ask someone else" tactic will backfire painfully (pun intended) should it happen again.

MemoryMan


Sherrif
Jack wrote:
MemoryMan wrote:All those doubts in my mind causing me to say "No" yesterday -- but how clearly and emphatically did I communicate them?

According to the scenario, you told them they couldn't ride bikes while the other boys were in school.  

According to the scenario as written I simply told them "No". The reasons read to be my internal musings.

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squarecutter


Sherrif
I like Kals answer. Not the full works but to know who's in charge. But next time I will be letting Bobby know my rules so they cant play him like that in my absence. One of my brothers got two lots of pocket money once by going to both our parents. Big trouble when he got caught!

John Boy


Sherrif
I would say a mild bottom warming or not let them ride bikes for a long time during or after school.

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Kat


Editor Extraordinaire
I agree with Kier. Before deciding to punish kids, be damn sure you understand their intentions. If a punishment is unfair from their point of view, its only likely effect will be to create resentment.

Kat

LLALVA


Trailboss
I think that they can have a one off, as they are new in the household, they should also understand that if they do not have any more chances.

As they are starting school soon, they won't be able to ride bikes when the rest of the children are in school.

Jack


Admin
For the record, the scenario says that 'you specifically told them that it was not okay 'while they other boys were in school', and they didn't argue with that. That kind of implies that you actually had said that to them previously.

All of you are more lenient than I was inclined to be. I intended to give both of them a full, double pattern with the Tail Blazers - small for Aidan and medium for Ethan.

Luckily for them, I had things that needed to be put away, since I was coming back from shopping. I sent them to my office, with strict instructions to sit on the couch and wait. I consider what they did not just disobedience, but also lying and disrespect.

Let me put it this way: do you see a difference between these two statements? "Bobby, can we go ride bikes?" "Bobby, yesterday your dad told us we can't ride bikes while the other guys are in school. Can we now?"

I'm not one of those people who feel you have to give everyone all information on everything, but I do feel that not sharing extremely pertinent information, in order to get what you want, is dishonest.

Having said all that, while I was putting things in the freezer, I cooled off (sorry, I couldn't resist).

There were really three things that changed my mind. First, is that the boys weren't in trouble (before this). They weren't home because they were pretending to be sick. They weren't home because they'd been suspended. They were home because it takes a few days for BCA to approve you, especially when you don't have all the files they request.

Second, Aidan and Ethan aren't like Bryce or Max. The later two boys are very small for their age, but their also very mature. Ethan and Aidan seem much more like Steven and John - physically and emotionally immature for their chronological age.

And the final thing is that, while a lot of the reason they're going to BCA, then coming here afterwards, is that they need a firm, steady routine, with specific understandable rules to which they're held. The only thing is that it's best to make sure they understand the rules.

Much like Kat said, if two spankings are given exactly the same, the one that will be much more effective is the one the boy knows he deserved.

When I got to my office, I explained to them that 'no' means no. If I say no conditionally, then it's their responsibility to keep up with the condition. That means if I say 'not today', it's fine to ask tomorrow. But if I tell them they can't go in the pool during a thunderstorm, that doesn't mean it's okay to do it next week. It means it's not okay to do that period.

I also explained why it bothered me that they went to Bobby after I'd told them no. The honest truth is, when I confronted them on the street, I saw in their eyes that they knew they'd messed up, but I also saw that 'oh, crap he told us not to do this' moment in their eyes. I think it was less they thought it would be okay the next day, so much as it just never occurred to them until we saw each other.

I did think about corner time for them, a very short session each (I've pretty much decided on half their age in minutes, which is half what I give my own kids normally), but they'd already been sitting on the couch for a while. Instead, I sent them out back to keep the dogs company, and all ended well (especially their ends).


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MemoryMan


Sherrif
Jack wrote:For the record, the scenario says that 'you specifically told them that it was not okay 'while they other boys were in school', and they didn't argue with that.  That kind of implies that you actually had said that to them previously.

The scenario does not make this clear.  There is a full stop after 'no' Hence the widespread leniency.

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Jack


Admin
Jack wrote: You point out that your (first) reason specifically said, 'while the other boys were in school'.  

They can't really argue with that.

In my experience, if you tell someone that you told them something, and you didn't, they'll argue with you.


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