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BOTD Extra 11 Jan 2015 - Borrowing Without Permission = ?

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Jack


Admin
Without Permission
a BOTD Extra by Jack

You've raised quite a few boys over the years, many of whom are now grown men.  For many of those years, you used corporal punishment with boys until they received their driver's license.  After they received the license, your primary consequence was taking the DL (and keys).  The only time you used CP with older boys was in the case of illegal activity, or if they violated a restriction.

In the last few years, you've had a run of boys whose ages were close together.  A case where a 15-year old and  a16-year old were punished together, resulted in both of them complaining it was unfair, so you gave the older boy his option of taking the same thing his little brother was getting.  Much to your surprise, he accepted.  Not long after that, another of your older boys complained it was unfair you'd given the first boy the choice, but not him.

Since then, it's become standard policy for you to give the boys an option in most cases, and they almost always go with CP (they have the option of selecting CP or restriction, but no choice as to the exact penalty you impose).  Not only that, but they tend to accept whichever consequence they get with less trouble, even on the occasions you don't give them a choice for some reason.

Along with the younger boys you adopt, you've taken in some older boys, usually because of trouble at home.  There have been occasions that trouble comes from their inability to behave, and the inability of a parent to control them.  In those cases, you usually inform the boy ahead of time that you will be using strict, and rather childish, punishment for them.  There are usually some complaints, but they have accepted it.

And then there's Christian.

Christian is living with you because his family situation just wasn't working, and he was considering doing something foolish.  Christian was never a discipline problem, so you offered him the same deal you have with your oldest boys currently at home - which is you handle all the bills, and they continue to follow the rules or face the same consequences.

While Christian has never been a discipline problem, he's still a boy, and you have paddled him several times in the months since he moved in with you.  He hasn't complained much, because you are treating him almost exactly like your own kids, and he recognizes that.  Your treatment of him has even extended to paying for him to take driver's education, and allowing him to borrow one of your vehicles from time to time.

Last night, you went to talk to Christian.  You couldn't find him, so you checked the In/Out board to find that he was checked out to spend some time with his younger siblings.

And he took your car to do it.

Without permission.

Your keys are easy to get to, and you've never not allowed Christian to use the car when he asked, but he's always asked.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Uh oh, here he is pulling up now - what's going to happen next?


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"In the end, it's just a story. But if you ask me, it's all true."
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squarecutter


Sherrif
I am going to listen to Christian explaining himself if he can. After which, if not satisfied, I will offer him the choice of losing use of the car or paddling according to the seriousness of the crime as I see it

db105


Trailboss
I'm with squarecutter.

Is there a way that he could have reasonably thought it would be OK to take the car without asking? For me whether there is intention to break the rules is important.

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Padraig


Trailboss
I'll listen to him and decide afterwards. But his explanation has to be a good one. If things are as they seem, he gets the offer to decide.

AFinch


Sherrif
I agree with everyone else.

David M. Katz


Marshall
I am with the consensus.  Listen first then offer a choice. Unless he has some convincing argument for "stealing" my car.

Looking at the Spankorama I think we all know how this one played out.


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Pi Beta


Deputy
In the UK unless he was a named person on the Insurance Documentation, he would be driving without insurance if he didn't have your permission to be using the car which would be illegal.

As a result, even if you would have given such permission if asked, I would be inclined to impose both a short driving ban and a paddling to emphasise the potential trouble his action could have caused him if he'd had an accident. If you'd noticed the car was missing, you might even have reported it stolen to the police.

Iconoclast


Trailboss
The main question is whether Cristian told you he was going to visit his brothers (or if you told him he was expected to do so) and if the distance is such that a car is required. If the forgoing is true Cristian may have assumed permission was implied.

Also was he using a car that he normally used. (with permission)

Iconoclast

Jack


Admin
Iconoclast wrote:The main question is whether Cristian told you he was going to visit his brothers

No.

Iconoclast wrote:(or if you told him he was expected to do so)

Definitely no.

Iconoclast wrote: and if the distance is such that a car is required.

Yes.

Iconoclast wrote:Also was he using a car that he normally used. (with permission)

Yes, he's only been allowed to use the one car.


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Jack


Admin
Because he was out when I discovered the missing boy and car, I had time to think about things.

Christian is old enough to take off for a while without my specific permission. He did mark where he'd be on the board, and he was back well before curfew.

Being very honest, I'm not 100% sure I hadn't said something like 'feel free to use the Lexus', that might have made him think he had standing permission.

Because of that, I was pretty nonchalant when he returned, and just told him that, while he did every thing right, it would be 'righter' for him to let me know specifically, before he left in cases like that.

David M. Katz wrote:Looking at the Spankorama I think we all know how this one played out.

Wrong. The paddling actually came Sunday morning. I just skipped the details to obfuscate things Razz


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"In the end, it's just a story. But if you ask me, it's all true."
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db105


Trailboss
Jack wrote:
Wrong.  The paddling actually came Sunday morning.  I just skipped the details to obfuscate things Razz

Not fair! Very Happy

Christian was close to getting two paddlings, then!

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=Danny

kalico


Sherrif
lol! Your to funny jack



Hugs kal

Murray Campbell


Cowboy
Pi Beta wrote:In the UK unless he was a named person on the Insurance Documentation, he would be driving without insurance if he didn't have your permission to be using the car which would be illegal.

I couldn't find Christian's age, In the UK you have to be 17-years-old before you can drive on a provisional license. So Christian would be further charged while driving under age if he had not attained his 17th birthday. He would also be facing a further charge of TWOC(ing) the vehicle that is, Taking Without Owner's Consent even though you're his legal guardian and he took your car without permission.

It seems Christian was quite lucky not to have been stopped by the police. I would go with Pi Beta and impose a month's driving ban together with a week's grounding.

Jack


Admin
Murray Campbell wrote:
Pi Beta wrote:In the UK unless he was a named person on the Insurance Documentation, he would be driving without insurance if he didn't have your permission to be using the car which would be illegal.

I couldn't find Christian's age, In the UK you have to be 17-years-old before you can drive on a provisional license. So Christian would be further charged while driving under age if he had not attained his 17th birthday. He would also be facing a further charge of TWOC(ing) the vehicle that is, Taking Without Owner's Consent even though you're his legal guardian and he took your car without permission.

It seems Christian was quite lucky not to have been stopped by the police. I would go with Pi Beta and impose a month's driving ban together with a week's grounding.

How exactly would the police have known he had taken the car without permission, if I didn't report it?

While I didn't mention that Christian is 18, the fact that I have let him borrow the car before should imply that he's a legal driver (which he is).


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"In the end, it's just a story. But if you ask me, it's all true."
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Murray Campbell


Cowboy
Jack
Jack wrote:How exactly would the police have known he had taken the car without permission, if I didn't report it?

If he had been stopped by the police [in the UK] they would have asked him if the car he was driving belonged to him, he would have replied that it didn't belong to him and that it belonged to you. They would then have asked him if you had given your permission to take the car and drive it.

Although he has driven your car before, on this occasion he didn't have your permission to drive it and technically he took the car without owner's consent, which is an offense.

Any unauthorised taking of a car is likely to cause distress and can cause significant inconvenience to the owner and his or her family, so this is an offence covering an everyday crime, yet one that often involves genuine emotions of personal invasion. Nevertheless, it is a summary offence defined under section 12(1) of the Theft Act 1968:

...a person shall be guilty of an offence if, without having the consent of the owner or other lawful authority, he takes any conveyance for his own or another's use, or knowing that any conveyance has been taken without such authority, drives it or allows himself to be carried in or on it.

Stone Man


Marshall
Late to the party, but am in agreement with those who answered early on.

Jack


Admin
Murray Campbell wrote:Jack
Jack wrote:How exactly would the police have known he had taken the car without permission, if I didn't report it?

If he had been stopped by the police [in the UK] they would have asked him if the car he was driving belonged to him, he would have replied that it didn't belong to him and that it belonged to you. They would then have asked him if you had given your permission to take the car and drive it.

Although he has driven your car before, on this occasion he didn't have your permission to drive it and technically he took the car without owner's consent, which is an offense.

Because he's going to say, "No, I didn't get his permission before taking off with it."  No, he's going to say, "Yeah, I live there - see how the address on his insurance and my driver's license are the same, and he lets me use this to run errands and stuff."  Then, if they don't believe him, they'd check with me, and I would have said yes to the police, even if I'd intended to paddle him when he got home.  

I see your point, but I don't think it's pertinent in this case.


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StevieWeeks


Trailboss
There appear to be significant differences between North American and U.K. law here...

In Canada, certainly, the car would have to be reported missing or the owner would have to lay a complaint against the the driver before the boy would be charged with unlawful use of a car... not sure whether it would have to be a charge of theft or not...

Insurance is also handled differently; most parents of my acquaintance are billed automatically for a licensed teenage driver residing in the same house and the only way to avoid this is to not allow the youngster to have a driving license. It is just assumed that a teenage driver will be using the family car and all; there was a thread some time ago about speeding more than fifty km over the limit in which I specifically stated that my son would have had to surrender his driving license to the MOT because I would no longer be able to afford to pay for his insurance...

In my family, when I was a teenager, even after the accident I had on my seventeenth birthday, I was generally allowed to use the family cars (we were a middle class family with two cars) without first obtaining permission, although I rarely abused this privilege; in fact, I mainly took over the driving chores for the entire family... especially hauling my younger siblings around when my parents were busy. I also was responsible for maintaining them as well... rather a lot of  responsibility for a sixteen year old...

In this case, I shall admonish the lad and let him know that I wish him to let me know when he is taking out the car... but this does not appear to me to be too serious since it is a case in which I'd likely have given him permission anyway...

Stevie does think, in this case where there is no lack of money and several boys who would be using the car, that he would personally not have them using a Lexus for several reasons... for one thing it's too powerful for young drivers and there will be an awful temptation for a lad to exercise his right foot in an unsafe manner... for another, it is rather expensive to be dealing with the inevitable scrapes and dings produced by a teenaged driver... He'd pick up a cheaper. less powerful, older car, and have it carefully inspected for safety - they can use that and all...

Finally - Stevie blows his own horn and all...  Sweet Seventeen  Rolling Eyes

Stevie.

LLALVA


Trailboss
Good that Christian did not get in trouble. I guess he is very responsible and it was not his intention.

I love you

Leti

Jack


Admin
StevieWeeks wrote:Stevie does think, in this case where there is no lack of money and several boys who would be using the car, that he would personally not have them using a Lexus for several reasons... for one thing it's too powerful for young drivers and there will be an awful temptation for a lad to exercise his right foot in an unsafe manner... for another, it is rather expensive to be dealing with the inevitable scrapes and dings produced by a teenaged driver... He'd pick up a cheaper. less powerful, older car, and have it carefully inspected for safety - they can use that and all...

Funny you should say that, Stevie. I stopped and picked up a '96 Saturn this afternoon, of which Christian will be the primary driver.

StevieWeeks wrote:Finally - Stevie blows his own horn and all...  

I tried that once, but couldn't reach. Embarassed


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"In the end, it's just a story. But if you ask me, it's all true."
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db105


Trailboss
StevieWeeks wrote:
In this case, I shall admonish the lad and let him know that I wish him to let me know when he is taking out the car... but this does not appear to me to be too serious since it is a case in which I'd likely have given him permission anyway...

Yes, but then what happens when it's a situation where you wouldn't have given permission? If the teen is used to taking it without permission with no negative consequence he'll probably end up taking it for something you wouldn't have allowed, and he'll be confused if he gets in trouble then.

Nice story, Steve!

http://www.malespank.net/listAuthor.php?author=Danny

John Boy


Sherrif
I'll ditto the earlier people. Talk first decide later.

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