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12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business

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1 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:37 pm

Jack

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Admin
You had told your 12-year old son, Todd, that he could go to a movie with his friends if he had the money. However, you also reminded him that he owes you money from an avoidable 'accident' a few weeks ago, and the deadline to pay it off without a spanking is today.

He had a great time at the movie.

You haven't heard from him all day, so you grab the paddle and go to have a talk to him.

"Do you have the money, Todd?"

"No problem. Last time I washed your car, you payed me ten bucks, so I did it today. You actually owe me two bucks now."

For the record, he didn't do a great job the last time, so you ran it through a car wash while eating lunch on the go, just a couple of days ago.


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Does Todd get his change or something else?


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2 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:41 pm

Adric

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Cowboy
I think he gets the spanking. The idea that he can wash your car any old time without your knowledge or permission and collect $10 needs to be corrected.

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3 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:55 pm

18Smacked

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Cowboy
Having watched enough “Judge Judy,” I know that in order for there to be a contract there has got to be a clear “meeting of the minds.” So, in this case, Todd felt that he got $ 10 last time he washed the car, so it should work that way this time. WRONG!

Unless he came to me, and asked if I wanted the car washed, and I was willing to pay him $ 10 if he did that, only then is there a “contract.” (I am not a lawyer, but I play one on TV. Laughing ) In view of the fact that he went to the movies and never asked me about washing the car (which if he had, I may well have refused, since he did a lousy job last time) there clearly was no “meeting of the minds.”

I have to agree with Adric; Todd bought himself an $ 8 spanking, and I put the paddle which I conveniently brought with me, to work.

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4 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:52 pm

David M. Katz

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Marshall
When he decided to use the money to go to the movie I assumed he had made his decision.

The car wash is irrelevant in that it was not part of the agreement.

Pants down, Todd.


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5 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:40 pm

StevieWeeks

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Trailboss
Stevie does not let kids wash his car because they always do a terrible job of it and he has to take it through the car wash after they've finished...

He's twelve... spanking is still legal... trousers down and over my knee, laddie...

Stevie.

6 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 8:52 pm

AFinch

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Sherrif
I have mixed feelings about this one. There is no "contract", but Todd did do some work and is likely to feel both cheated and treated unfairly if his only recompense is a (well deserved) spanking.

I think I'm going to tell Todd that he did a lousy job last time, which required me to pay, a second time, for a proper car wash. I'm going to discuss the fact that one cannot just perform a service at will and expect to be paid for doing so--that isn't the nature of contracts. Since he's 12, and we haven't previously had that discussion, Todd and I will go examine the job he's done together. If he did a great job, I'll give him his change along with reinforcing that in future he shouldn't expect to be paid for services performed unless that is agreed upon in advance. If he's again done a lousy job, he's getting the paddling, and an explanation that the quality of his "work" is of such poor quality that it is valueless--so he's getting paid what it's worth--nothing.

7 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:01 pm

18Smacked

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Cowboy
AFinch wrote:I think I'm going to tell Todd that he did a lousy job last time, which required me to pay, a second time, for a proper car wash.  I'm going to discuss the fact that one cannot just perform a service at will and expect to be paid for doing so--that isn't the nature of contracts.  


Upon further review, I think Kier's response is much more appropriate than my original decision. There will be ill feelings, justifiably, if I did not explain first about what poor service is worth, and what I pay for that, as well as the reality that he need to ask if even want the car washed. Having done that, I will then be in the position to enforce a contractual situation for the future.

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8 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:27 pm

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
I'm with Kier.

Kat

9 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:42 am

ivor

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Marshall
I doubt even Icono could find fault with Kier's summation of the situation.

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10 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:42 am

Jack

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Admin
(I was working on the Advent Calendar yesterday, so I spent about 30 seconds coming up with this scenario and gave absolutely zero thought to the solution beforehand.)

I am tempted to just give him the paddling, but Kier has a point. What really bothers me is that I feel Todd's trying to pull a fast one.

Here's what should have happened, and I'm going to explain this to Todd.

"Dad, can I go to the movie with the guys tonight."

"Do you have enough money? Don't forget, you, me, and Red have a date Sunday afternoon, if you don't pay off your debt."

"I only owe you eight dollars more, so I was gonna wash your car again. Okay?"

I'll explain that there are a lot of reasons I might not have let him wash my car - from the facts (that he didn't do a great job, and that I'd just gone through a car wash) to the possibility that it might rain tomorrow (how many 12-year olds check the forecast?).

After reminding him that I let him out of a paddling in the first place, and that he doesn't get to decide the terms of our agreement, or to just do something and I'll owe him money, I'll see if he's learned a lesson from our discussion. If it seems he has, we'll go look at the car. I'll point out how he has or has not done the expected job this time, and he'll have to correct any problems. I'll let him know that he's working on a twenty percent discount this time for not asking, and that I won't pay him anything for unrequested chores in the future.

No change, but no spanking - as long as he acts at least a little contrite.


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11 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:41 am

Y Lee Coyote

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Deputy
All this legalistic stuff in dealing with a twelve-year-old who is not able to legally make a contract is just skimming the surface of the issues and misses the point.

Since Todd did not do a proper job last time I have been negligent in not teaching him how to do the job properly to earn the pay.  Evidently I just paid last time without complaint obviously teaching the wrong lessons.

It is wrong to assume that Todd did a bad job this time.  Perhaps with more experienced he has done a good job.  It needs to be inspected.  

Similarly, the car may have needed a wash.  One would have hoped Todd noticed the state before he did the washing.  Presumably he knows that he is not going to get paid for doing a job that did not need doing (such as cutting grass a second time in two days).

There may have been precedents set about doing other tasks about the house that earn Todd cash without having to be explicitly asked for.

Certainly his get up and go for earning some money is a inherently good thing.  Not something to be casually squashed.

Much discussion is needed and the paddle stays on the wall.

Y.

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12 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:48 am

squarecutter

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Sherrif
I think I use my hand this time and leave the paddle out. I will allow this to wipe debts, percived o otherwise on both sides and I suggest Todd would be unwise to try to open a discussion over the other 2 dollars. Sunshine. this was not asked for so the debt has to be repaid. Its rather like those roofers doing an unsolicited botch job and then demanding money for it. Contracts, even verbal ones have to be entered into by both sides and I did not

13 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:31 am

Adric

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Cowboy
squarecutter wrote:... I suggest Todd would be unwise to try to open a discussion over the other 2 dollars.

After reading the comments by squarecutter, YLC and others I think I need a cooling-off period before deciding what to do.  My initial reaction was based on one thing that Todd said, "You actually owe me two bucks now."  That did not go over well with me.  I need to talk to Todd to determine whether he needs an "attitude adjustment", or whether he is sincere and just needs me to explain a few things to him.  He needs to learn, of course, that he can't just go wash the car any time he wants some money.  He also needs some sensitivity training to recognize when his words are going to provoke a bad reaction.  (Perfect parents, of course, can never be provoked by carelessly chosen words, but then who's perfect.)  It's possible that those things, obvious to me, are not obvious to a 12-year old.

So we need to have a talk, not only about the nature of agreements but also about the best ways to avoid interpersonal conflicts.  We also need to check out the car to see if it looks better this time than it did the last time.  I think a spanking is still a possibility depending on how this conversation and inspection goes, but it seems less likely now than it did earlier.



Last edited by Adric on Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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14 Re: 12 Dec 2016 - Repeat Business on Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:21 pm

18Smacked

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Cowboy
Y Lee Coyote wrote:All this legalistic stuff in dealing with a twelve-year-old who is not able to legally make a contract is just skimming the surface of the issues and misses the point.


Much discussion is needed and the paddle stays on the wall.

Y.

Sorry I brought up the legal arguments at all and tended to cloud the issues. YLee has a point here, I think, and I see I confused matters with that.

In any case, for sure, the paddle is not appropriate in this case, at this time.

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15 Repeat Business on Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:33 am

tbfyb

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Cowboy
Todd gets a C+ for effort and a spanking.

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