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Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket

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1 Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:23 pm

Jack

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Admin
This is not going to be a traditional BOTD. Rather, I wanted actual input into the situation in specific and general. It just seemed like this would be the place to ask for it.

Back in late September, Greg received a traffic ticket. The details can be found in "Greg's Issue".

This is relevant because I just found out that 17-year old Jeremy received a ticket last week, while traveling between here and his grandmother's house. The two situations aren't exactly the same, but I decided that, with three other, minor teens and ten young adults currently under my supervision/on my insurance, and ten other boys waiting in the wings, that it might be best if I came up with a consistent policy on this issue.

Digression: If someone is old enough to drive, they receive one tank of gas on my bill each week. Technically that's to pay boys for having to run errands. That's not true with the college kids (except Clayton), but I understand the older boys needing to get out and around sometimes (and none of them really seem to abuse it). Actual cash is $50 a week for college kids, and $2/week/year of age for the younger kids. That means Bryce and Jeremy receive $34 a week, while Van receives $28. There are some other things going on, but that's the biggest part of it.

Jeremy's ticket is going to be $240, which is a double problem, since his allowance is smaller than Greg's, and because Jeremy doesn't have the opportunity to do a lot of work for me before he has to leave back for home.

Here are the questions that I have (so far - maybe you'll think of others).

1) Should there me a minimum amount that a boy is required to pay each week towards his fine? If so, what?

2) What is a good way to set interest so that it's not ruinous, but that it does encourage a boy to pay the debt off more quickly?

3) Should a boy be allowed to not pay some weeks? At his convenience or only if it's something you consider a special occasion? What would a good penalty for that be?

4) While you don't use corporal punishment for a basic traffic offense, should a boy be allowed to request CP to pay off his interest or even part of his debt? If so, what would a good rate be?

I'm going to stop there to see what/if anyone else has things to say. If there's information you need that I missed, please let me know, and I'll fill in.

Thanks


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2 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:27 pm

David M. Katz

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Marshall
Jack,

I would call a meeting of the boys and work this out.

However, this is my thought and it will seem harsh.

If there is a fine/ticket that you have to advance money for then I say that boy must make regular weekly payments at simple 3% interest. (I=prt where r is .03)  Time for repayment is based on "income" but it should be stiff.  

CP should be used as the penalty for missing a payment or being late with a payment; not in lieu of the payment.


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3 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:40 pm

18Smacked

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I laughed at Dave's 3 % simple interest because when I read the post, I immediately thought 3 %. I would say that if a fine is paid off in a one year period of time, all interest might be returned.

But Jack, here was my thought. I assume that the boys have been encouraged to have a savings account from the time they started getting an allowance. If that is true, should they be allowed to make a deduction from their savings in order to cover all or any of the cost of a fine?

As for allowing a boy to take a spanking to pay off all or part of interest or the cost of a fine, I would not suggest that this be allowed, as it confuses what CP is- a punishment penalty. While I know it is true that the same could be said of why spankings are decreed, I do not think that this should be allowed.

I like Dave's idea of having a family meeting and having the boys work out the rest of the issues. I think it is an excellent idea.

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4 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:35 am

Jack

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Smacked, this is more FYI than relevant, but...

I do not encourage the younger boys to start savings accounts (though I don't forbid it), simply because they don't get a lot of money in relation to costs these days. I do have what is basically old-fashioned pass books for them, and if they want to save money, I do that for them.

On the other hand, in the original post, I mentioned that there is a bit more to their allowance than the cash they get, and part of that is weekly payments to a 'savings account', which has several specific purposes through the year, including family gifts, angel tree shopping, and expensive, non-family trips. I feel like doing it this way - so it's their money they're spending for those things - makes it more important to them than if I just gave them the money, but it's also not expecting younger kids to have to save it.

I was neither given money nor encouraged to save, so it was hard for me to come up with a way to do it with my kids, but this seems to work. When they're 15, they do get their own account.




The problem with a roi of 3% is that it's a negligible amount. Over a course of a year, it would only be $7.20. If I charged that weekly, it would be a ridiculous amount ($108, I think).

My real purpose in charging interest it to allow the boys some leeway in how much they agree to pay each week, while encouraging them to pay it off as quick as possible. Maybe it would be better to consider this a fee, instead of interest?




Jeremy and I have already solved this, but I'll wait a bit longer (and hopefully for a few more responses) before sharing how we handled things.


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5 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Fri Dec 30, 2016 9:20 am

David M. Katz

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Marshall
Jack,

The idea of a "fee" is a better concept.


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6 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:31 pm

kalico

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Sherrif
I agree with Katz .... I like the idea of a fee




Hugs kal

7 Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket » on Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:34 pm

tbfyb

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Cowboy
I think a request to skip a payment for some valid special reason should be okay'd and I am also willing to skip any interest that this delay will cause.

A reasonable interest rate (10% to keep the math simple) is okay as it is sufficiently high enough to encourage early pay offs.

By the way, what was the offense that resulted in $240 fine?

I have a problem with tickets and the courts (here in Las Vegas) -- several years ago I was making a left turn and popped the clutch causing the car to stall -- I had plenty of time to execute the turn -- more than enough -- and indeed, the car that hit me (shearing off the whole front plastic assembly) had plenty of time to stop -- if you're generous and give that driver the benefit of any doubt, she wasn't paying attention -- if you are more cynical her hitting my car was deliberate --- she actually changed lanes to hit me.  All that aside -- I was given a ticket for making an unsafe turn -- and I am not questioning my being cited --- However, when I went to court there was a lady (about 70 years of age) who had been given a ticket for having a defective turn indicator (burnt out bulb) and she was fined $250 and when she claimed to not know that they turn indicators were not working -- the judge scolded her for not running a routine check before she got into the car and for not reading the instruction manual so she would know that a rapid blink was an indication of a problem.

When I was in college and working for the L.A. Traffic Courts, such a ticket would, with presentation that the problem had been corrected, be dismissed without a fine --- Here, in North Las Vegas (where the Traffic Court was located) I am convinced that the judge must get a percentage of fines imposed -- and many of the people I saw in the court house that day were paying off HUGE fines on a weekly basis --- I found most fines assessed that day to be excessively high --- my ticket (the first of any kind that would have been known to the court - the first in 10 years anyway) was $380 + an additional $80 for enrollment in an evening traffic class (mandatory because the ticket involved an accident) -- FYI: the lady who hit my car later sued --- and the insurance company found out that she had had at least 5 accidents in the last several years none of which were her fault -- I wonder how many might have been avoided?



Last edited by tbfyb on Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total

8 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Fri Dec 30, 2016 4:02 pm

squarecutter

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Sherrif
I think the hit to the boys' pocket should be the primary punishment. Im not such even an expert spanker as you, Jack, can really hurt them the way that reducing their spending power would.

Next point is what the source of their "income" is. Is it allowance, chores based or from gainful employment. How many could actually see off a traffic ticket in say 1-3 months. A boy in work could obviously stump up in less instalments. A boy could also earn through chores beyond his usual ones

I think no boy in this situation should expect any allowance next "payday." An immediate hit. You can levy extra chores special jobs to accelerate the process and from there on levy a tapering sum of allowance till the fine is paid. In this way a boys social life is likely to be proscribed through lack of funds as well



I dont know that charging interest to school boys is going to do more than
prolong the agony


Jack you will lose out a bit through having to stump up straight away but you should gain through having boys aware of their transgression for a while. A worthwhile price?

9 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:52 pm

Jack

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tbfyb wrote:By the way, what was the offense that resulted in $240 fine?

Speeding. He was doing 86 in a 70 zone. In his defense, it had been a 75 zone, and he was caught right after the change, but that still would have been speeding.




Square - I have no trouble losing out. Honestly, in some circumstances, I would have no problem paying an entire ticket (like if I thought it was unfair). The reason I make the boys pay them is that I do want them to learn the cost of this kind of behavior.

A good point about boys who earn outside money. Most of my boys have the opportunity, in theory, but some (like Van and Bryce) are just too busy to do much extra work. Then again, most boys who are working would be able to pay the ticket fairly promptly without borrowing money from me.


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10 Re: Bonus 12/29/16 - The Cost of a Ticket on Sat Dec 31, 2016 2:27 pm

Jack

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First of all, I am going to have a meeting with all the boys who are old enough to drive, and I'll probably include Van and Parker. We're going to discuss a lot of the issues that have been discussed here, and I'm going to accept their feedback on at least some of it.

What I did with Jeremy (on the repayment) is we figured out how long it would take him to pay off the ticket if I took his entire allowance each week until it was covered. That comes to 7 weeks, with $2 being needed from the next week. If he asks to pay half his allowance each week, it would take 15 weeks. If he only wants to pay $12 a week, it would take 20 weeks. I think the 'fee' is going to be based on how many weeks the repayment takes, beyond what it would take if I confiscated his entire allowance. I'm leaning towards saying there is a minimum of 1%, even if you use the entire allowance (or maybe three), then 1% more for each additional week you take. Jeremy chose to pay half his allowance, which made it an additional 7 weeks. We went with a straight 7% this time, which means an additional $16.80, all to be taken from the sixteenth week's allowance.

For the record, I have an automatic transfer set up to put the older boys allowance in their account, so I have to keep up with it when handling matters like this (maybe I should charge them a processing fee as well?). That means they have no choice in paying me back, once we reach our agreement. I'm not sure what kind of things I'd consider 'valid' as an excuse to not make a payment one week, but I will probably offer one 'free' week for any reason, and if a believable emergency comes up - I'll handle those on a case by case basis.

Jeremy did get paddled, by the way. Not specifically for the ticket, but because his mom and I had trusted him to make this drive (the longest he's ever made by himself). She gave him a safety lecture, and he and I had a discussion about several points of driving safety that was a bit more realistic than what his mom probably gave him. Despite promising both of us that he was going to be safe and careful (and promising me to keep it to 8 miles over or less, and to follow the speed limits in towns), he still would have been doing 11 over, even before the speed limit dropped. That meant he broke promises he made to both of us. After a discussion, he and I agreed that his broken word deserved more than just the fine.

I informed him I wasn't going to count swats, because I wanted him paying attention to the fact that he'd betrayed his mom and my trust in him and how that could hurt him - not in counting swats. With that in mind, he chose the medium Lexan, to get it over with most quickly (I've never used the large Lexan on one of the boys - only rarely in adult play).

I gave him five swats. There was maybe a one inch line on his upper legs, but I kept it mostly on his butt. There were some yelps, but not much noise. I had to get him back into position once. After five swats, his chest was shaking, and you could tell he was doing that 'silent sobbing' thing, so I stopped while he was still managing to hold on. I was sure my point had been made, and it left him with some of his dignity intact.


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