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BOTD 01-31-2017 Not There! - An 18-Smacked Production

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Skater

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Bransom Postmaster
NOT THERE!
An 18Smacked Production



Your twelve-yearold son, Sammy, has always had very routine dental appointments, with no cavities that ever were seen, either visually or on the routine x-rays. But this year, he had his cleaning exam, and the x-rays showed two cavities. The dentist, who is very good with kids, had some time in his schedule, and with your permission, went to drill and fill these cavities before they became bigger and caused a problem.

Dr. Brady went in and explained to Sammy about the cavities, showed him them on the x-ray and explained how he was going to fix the problem, and no one would ever even know he had a cavity. Sammy had never said that he had any problem with the dentist or with getting an injection, and after coating a swab with numbing salve and letting that do its thing for a minute, Dr. Brady went to give the injection of Novacaine. But, that was when Sammy yelled out, “NO!” and kicked the dentist where a man ought not get kicked.


SAMMY - 12
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Naturally, you apologized profusely to Dr. Brady for the actions that Sammy took, even if he was scared. But, is this where things should stand? Or, should Sammy have handled this situation differently, and is spanking, or even an application of the hairbrush appropriate for Sammy’s bare bottom due to what happened?

Your reaction?



Last edited by Skater on Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total


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db105

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Trailboss
I would need more information before deciding. Does this seem to me a reaction of pure panic or the act of a spoiled boy? Really, 12 should be too old to act like that, unless he has a phobia or something. What's his attitude afterwards? Does he apologize? Is he ashamed? Panicky?

By the way, from now on the dentist would do well to place himself at the patient's side instead of in front of his legs... Just saying.

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AFinch

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Sherrif
The demon spawn actually did this when he was 12, to a lab tech attempting (unsuccessfully) to draw his blood.

Spanking a terrified kid is a counterproductive. I'll apologize, and we'll try talking, handholding, and bribery instead.

Padraig

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Trailboss
Of course Sammy should have known better or handled the situation differently. But history books and papers are full of people - a lot older then him - who should have known better or handled situations differently.

I don't think he needs much prompting to apologise once he calmed down enough. Certainly no spanking. But we need to think about how to continue his treatment.

Adric

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Cowboy
AFinch wrote:The demon spawn actually did this when he was 12, to a lab tech attempting (unsuccessfully) to draw his blood.

Spanking a terrified kid is a counterproductive.  I'll apologize, and we'll try talking, handholding, and bribery instead.

I'm on board with that - apology, talking, handholding, bribery.

I've never been that great with dentists myself but I don't think I ever kicked any. My heart goes out to Sammy. We'll apologize to the dentist, have an intense discussion of what needs to be done, and try again. I think he just panicked so no spanking. As for the dentist, I think he should consider adopting the posture used by police when approaching the car window of an offender - stand well back and to one side when approaching so you don't become the victim.



Last edited by Adric on Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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StevieWeeks

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Adric wrote: My heart goes out to Sammy.

Mine doesn't. He's twelve years old, not a bloody toddler, and should know better by now...

He's still legally able to be spanked, and he's sure getting it when we arrive at home...

It will be a long time before Stevie forgives him for behaving like a three year old brat in public.

Stevie.

Y Lee Coyote

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Deputy
Well if that dentist is good with kids than let him work on a sheep ranch.  Obviously, he is NOT good with boys and certainly not this particular boy.

The boy panicked and he should have anticipated that.  We have not been told of Sammy’s experiences with being stuck with needles previously as getting injections at the physician’s office.

It was not for Sammy -- just a child -- to volunteer information about his possible problems.  That was for the responsible accompanying parent to tell the dentist and for the dentist to inquire about.  It was also for the dentist to explain about the injection and even demonstrate how the topical anesthetic would dull the pain of the shot.  From Sammy’s reaction that was not adequately done.

Punishing panic is totally irrational.  Sammy’s cavities need to wait a bit longer to be treated while he overcomes his fear

When I was somewhat older many decades ago, I learnt that it was less painful to refuse the novocaine shot because overall it was less pleasant.  The shot hurt, the wear off took hours and hours while the drilling took only a few seconds for a simple cavity.  And that was with the mechanical drill, rather than the air drill, which was more painful.  The needle was thicker and duller as it was multiple use compared to today’s which are thinner and sharper.

Y.

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Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
You know, one of my earliest memories is being held down in an emergency room, while I was very sick and terrified, for an injection of penicillin. Despite two adults holding me, I managed to get loose enough to kick the doctor in his obese gut. To this day I'm not sorry, I did. I wish I could have kicked the bastard harder. I am sorry that not one of the goddamn adults in the room, including my mother, managed the situation better. I'm sorry the situation gave me, if not a needle phobia, a great deal of anxiety about any procedure involving needles and a general dislike of doctors and nurses.

I'm with Y on this one, and pretty much in agreement with Kier and Padraig. I'd also expect a dentist in the US to offer nitrous oxide, which is great for anxious patients.


Kat

David M. Katz

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Marshall
Y Lee Coyote wrote:Well if that dentist is good with kids than let him work on a sheep ranch.  Obviously, he is NOT good with boys and certainly not this particular boy.

The boy panicked and he should have anticipated that.  We have not been told of Sammy’s experiences with being stuck with needles previously as getting injections at the physician’s office.

It was not for Sammy -- just a child -- to volunteer information about his possible problems.  That was for the responsible accompanying parent to tell the dentist and for the dentist to inquire about.  It was also for the dentist to explain about the injection and even demonstrate how the topical anesthetic would dull the pain of the shot.  From Sammy’s reaction that was not adequately done.

Punishing panic is totally irrational.  Sammy’s cavities need to wait a bit longer to be treated while he overcomes his fear


I cannot improve on this wisdom.


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ivor

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Marshall
I'm tending to join Stevie on this one, although I believe a spanking would be counter productive.

Sammy is 12 and as far as we can tell a reasonably intelligent child. The scenario says the dentist explained the procedure to him which I thus have to consider includes the injection.

That was the point at which Sammy should have raised any possible problems, fears or doubts he had. The so called responsible parent can't have been expected to raise them as they were unknown and as for the dentist it seems to me he did his best to explain matters.

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Jack

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Admin
I'm going to assume that, as the parent in this scenario, I'm not a complete idiot. Therefore, I'm reasonably sure I'd know if Sammy had a phobia (or anything close to it), when it came to needles. That means one of three things happened: something has happened that I don't know about to make Sammy scared, there was something about this specific situation that set him off, or else Sammy did this on purpose. I suppose there are other possibilities, but those seem most likely to me.

I'm going to discuss things with Sammy. Assuming he seems stressed out and upset (and hopefully apologetic), we'll try to figure out what the problem is, and get Sammy calmed enough to progress. If there's even a hint of humor in the boy, he'll be too worried about what's going to happen when we get home to be concerned with his teeth.


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AFinch

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Sherrif
ivor wrote:I'm tending to join Stevie on this one, although I believe a spanking would be counter productive.

Sammy is 12 and as far as we can tell a reasonably intelligent child. The scenario says the dentist explained the procedure to him which I thus have to consider includes the injection.


I actually have a dentist's appointment this morning. I know from years of previous experience that dentists speak in jargon to minimalize what they're about to do. "You MIGHT feel SOME DISCOMFORT", never "this will hurt like hell", and "we will give you something to dull the pain" which even a reasonably intelligent 12 year old might construe as a pill, or just lidocaine on a q-tip, or even nitrous oxide if they've heard of it from a friend. I wouldn't necessarily, especially at that age, think someone is going to stick a needle that looks gigantic inside my mouth. I'm a very good patient, and always have been (except when I got my pre-injection for anesthesia when my tonsils were removed at age 5--at that time, this very tiny, scrawny kid needed 2 nurses and a mother to hold him down for that). Punishing panic is counterproductive and wrong. I think this scenario was badly handled by the adults. Is that three days in a row YLC and I have agreed?

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
Most dentists and their staff in my experience are very good at hiding their instruments from the patients. I worked in a dental office in high school, and believe me, the last thing you want to do is invite panic by letting people get a glimpse of the syringe or anything else on the tray. No

Kat

Adric

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Cowboy
Kat wrote:... the last thing you want to do is invite panic by letting people get a glimpse of the syringe or anything else on the tray. No

And it really was gigantic, not like any syringe and needle I'd ever seen before.  It wasn't benign either, because by the next day all that still hurt was the damage done by that needle.

[rant] And then there was the worst experience of all - six weeks of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trismus caused by that needle, during which I couldn't open my mouth more than an inch.  I lost five pounds that I didn't need to lose.  That was miserable.[/rant]

AFinch wrote:... someone is going to stick a needle that looks gigantic inside my mouth. ... Punishing panic is counterproductive and wrong.  I think this scenario was badly handled by the adults. ...

I can't see punishing him for losing control of himself as a result of a panic attack.  He probably didn't even realize that he had kicked the dentist or connected with him in a bad place.

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StevieWeeks

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Trailboss
Stevie has a hard time understanding why no one expects a boy of twelve to behave in a civilised manner...

If Stevie had behaved like this as an eight year old his father would have hit the roof and it would have been a very long time (weeks) before he'd have been spoken to again... let alone at twelve...

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
StevieWeeks wrote:Stevie has a hard time understanding why no one expects a boy of twelve to behave in a civilised manner...

If Stevie had behaved like this as an eight year old his father would have hit the roof and it would have been a very long time (weeks) before he'd have been spoken to again... let alone at twelve...


I call it empathy, Stevie. Having been in similar situations myself, I understand a child's panic. I also know that panic borne of fear and pain isn't limited to children. My brother-in-law was in his early 20s when he took a swing at a doctor who had convinced him he didn't really need a local before having a cut on his hand sutured. It was a reflexive action, and luckily for the 'doctor', the punch didn't connect.

Kat

StevieWeeks

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Trailboss
Um... when Stevie was seven years old he had a three week stay in a hospital  and every day he had two blood tests. The vacuum phials had not yet been invented then, and each blood withdrawal took the better part of five minutes... they were excruciating and I was expected, not only by my parents, but by the hospital staff to not kick up a fuss...

Stevie had many, many painful medical procedures as a child...

Stevie also had many fillings as a child starting when he was five or six years old... and again, there was no expectation that he would kick the dentist in the groin over it...

So don't tell Stevie that he has no empathy because he never had that kind of experience...

The kid in the scenario is just an out-of-control spoiled brat and deserves to be treated like one.

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
StevieWeeks wrote:Um... when Stevie was seven years old he had a three week stay in a hospital  and every day he had two blood tests. The vacuum phials had not yet been invented then, and each blood withdrawal took the better part of five minutes... they were excruciating and I was expected, not only by my parents, but by the hospital staff to not kick up a fuss...

Stevie had many, many painful medical procedures as a child...

Stevie also had many fillings as a child starting when he was five or six years old... and again, there was no expectation that he would kick the dentist in the groin over it...

So don't tell Stevie that he has no empathy because he never had that kind of experience...

The kid in the scenario is just an out-of-control spoiled brat and deserves to be treated like one.

Well, Stevie, I didn't say you had no empathy because you didn't have that kind of experience. I said others do have empathy borne of that kind of experience. It seems your experiences only resulted in empathy for the point of view of the adults, with none for the child. You seem to have internalized the way you were treated. You insist the boy in the scenario is a brat, and you are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I insist the child reacted in a reflexive way due to poor handling of the situation by the dentist. I am, of course, entitled to my opinion.

Kat

Adric

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Cowboy
StevieWeeks wrote:The kid in the scenario is just an out-of-control spoiled brat and deserves to be treated like one.

We just don't agree with you, Stevie.

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StevieWeeks

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Trailboss
I'm sorry I'm such a disgusting monster and all...

Goodbye.

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
StevieWeeks wrote:I'm sorry I'm such a disgusting monster and all...

Goodbye.

I'm sorry, Stevie. I must have missed the part where someone called you a monster or said you're disgusting.

Kat

Adric

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Cowboy
Kat wrote:
StevieWeeks wrote:I'm sorry I'm such a disgusting monster and all...

Goodbye.

I'm sorry, Stevie. I must have missed the part where someone called you a monster or said you're disgusting.

Kat

I think you are taking this too seriously, Stevie.  It is normal for people not to agree.  I think it would be a pretty oppressive environment if everyone had to agree.  It's not an insult to say that you don't agree with someone.  It was not too long ago in a different BOTD when I was advocating for a spanking when nearly everyone else seemed to favor something milder.  That is okay with me and I wasn't offended.

I think of this Forum as a "safe place" where people will accept me the way I am.  Agreeing with me, or me with them, is not required.

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squarecutter

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Sherrif
Clearly needles in in the arm are one thing but in the mouth...?
Even at 12 if this was a first time I understand this panicked reaction even if it seems somewhat over the top. I will try to calm him down and ask him to apologise to the dentist who if he is good with kids I am sure will be understanding of the reaction. It will be better if we can get this over today. This time I will squeeze his hand to help him through. No punishment.
The worst for me was a numb mouth for hours afterwards.

About ten years ago I had an abssece on one of those double rooted teeth which had to be removed in two parts. No dentistry I had as a child matched the pain with that

Emlyn Morgan

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Trailboss
Ah, yes, dentists! You've got to love them.

The one here charged me 200 dirhams (20 USD) each recently for patching two teeth. But what can you do? He laughed at me when I tried to negotiate. I told him I was serious.

Never mind. I'm going to whack that boy.

db105

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Trailboss
Adric wrote:
I think you are taking this too seriously, Stevie.  It is normal for people not to agree.  I think it would be a pretty oppressive environment if everyone had to agree.  It's not an insult to say that you don't agree with someone.  

Disagreeing is one thing. Making it a matter of having or not having empathy may be a different one.

Anyway, I agree that we take these too seriously. I miss the time when the BOTD discussions were more tongue-in-cheek. Nowadays they often seem too much like a discussion on the pros and cons of real life CP.

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