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BOTD 3/4/17 "What About The Adult Boy" A DMK Production

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David M. Katz

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Marshall

WHAT ABOUT THE ADULT BOY?
A DMK Production


You have two sons.  Greg is now a twenty-one year old adult.  Your younger son, Wayne, is fifteen.  Greg attends the local university full-time and is a finance major and also works part-time as a desk clerk for a local hotel.  Greg still lives at home so that he can keep costs down and concentrate on school.  Wayne is a high school freshman.

GREG - 21
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WAYNE - 15
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You and your spouse won a weekend get away in the mountains in a radio contest.  You and your spouse left Friday afternoon and, of course, left your sons at home.  Greg was charged with "watching over" his younger brother.  Both boys agreed to the arrangement. You specifically said no parties and no overnight guests.

Unknown to you, Wayne had decided to have two friends over for a small party.  Wayne's friends arrived and busied themselves with pizza, music, and video games.  Greg was present and was aware of the unauthorized party.  In fact, Greg took things further.  Greg told the boys that every good party needed beer and, since he was twenty-one, he would make the purchase.  The boys pooled their money and Greg went on a beer run.

Things got a bit out of hand and the boys all got drunk.  The father of one of the guest boys showed up after his son called him seeking a ride home.  That father took his son and his son's best friend home.

You get home on Sunday and Greg and Wayne act as if nothing happened.  You then get a call from the father who showed up at the party. The gentleman simply wanted you to know what happened and he is not planning on any further action.

After some questioning Greg and Wayne admit to everything and Greg even admits to his role in supplying the beer.

You give Wayne a whipping with the belt and then he is grounded for a week.

What about Greg, the adult boy? Does he face any consequences?  If so, what?


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Jack

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The real problem here is that I can't force Greg to do anything, because he's an adult. What I can and will do is point out that he's my son, and I'll always love him and help him as much as I can, but that Wayne is still a minor, so caring for Wayne is a higher responsibility right now. Because of that, I can't let Greg stay in the house, if I'm afraid of him harming his brother.

I am also going to point out to both of them how much harm this could really have caused, if something happened, or even just if the father of one of the other kids reported it.

With that out of the way, I'm going to ask Greg what happened to Wayne, then I'm going to ask who's more responsible - the boy who drank the beer, or the one who supplied it. Then I'm going to ask what he thinks should happen to him.

I intend that Greg is going to get a very thorough whipping, then apologize to Wayne (and the parents of the other boys) before starting his weeks grounding. If that doesn't happen, I'm going to have to give very serious thought to what happens next.


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AFinch

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Sherrif
I have nothing to add to Jack's excellent answer.

Padraig

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Trailboss
That's another example of 'cultural' difference between US and (central) Europe...

Where I live Greg wouldn't have to provide the beer, it would have been already been in the basement (one or more crates of 20 bottles). There is no law against underage drinking at home (incl. private/non commercial events). Maybe someone could construct a case of bodily harm but at 15 I doubt it would be the first time they're drunk...

Just stating the facts, not justifying them.

Adric

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Cowboy
I'm with Jack on this.

Greg needs a deluxe whipping - never mind how old he is.

I think that if Greg can't cooperate with the plan Jack described, Greg may have to find somewhere else to live.

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18Smacked

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Cowboy
I think if I do allow Greg to continue o stay in the house, there needs to be a written contact that will specify the rules that I demand he observe or else he will be evicted. Those rules would specify terms for alcohol use (or not) and if I go away overnight, there will be another contract regarding treatment of his younger brother and conditions thereof.

I will have a true heart to heart talk with both of my children and we will talk at length about the risk that Greg exposed all present to by supplying the alcohol as he did, and I like Jack's thoughts of asking them what consequences are appropriate. I will make real sure they understand the legal risks they are incredibly lucky they are not facing, but could if that boy's father chose to do that.

I also agree with Padraig regarding the benefits of providing appropriate opportunities to teach children about responsible alcohol use. I grew up with my Dad allowing me to drink in religious contexts and then in social contexts, as did my close friends. When we went to college, we had little to no interest in drinking but those who had alcohol as a "forbidden fruit" went crazy over drinking on the weekends.

I am not saying that the kids should have been provided with alcohol and allowed to give it to their friends at their discretion. However, this topic should have been discussed before the kids were left on their own.

When a senior in H.S., it was New Years and I had a couple of friends as overnight guests and my parents went out to a party around the block. My parents were friends with both boys' parents. My Dad specifically told us we were able to have access to the alcohol in the bar at home, but there was to be no driving. We drank but none of us got drunk that night, and none of us drove anywhere. For us, the alcohol was not a "forbidden fruit."

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squarecutter

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Sherrif
Not sure how one goes about whipping a 21 year old unless they are going to co-operate. He'll probably just laugh in my face. I will tell him how disappointed I am that he betrayed my trust in this way and that I'm not sure I can leave him as man of the house in future for abetting his brothers disobedience in this way not to mention other kids. On the assumption Greg is not entirely financially independent yet I will be chopping his allowance for a month unless he wishes to join his brother in he red butt club.

As Padraig suggests I don't expect anyone in the UK would bat an eyelid about the two lads having the odd can from the fridge in our absence especially as one is well over the age limit but I did say no parties so there is no need to waste too much sympathy on Wayne. I wonder if Greg is still Wayne's cool big brother to his friends

Beaver

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Wrangler
As the saying goes: "As long as you live under my roof...". Greg should have a whipping coming, but I can't force him to accept one. I won't tolerate him being a bad influence for his younger brother, so if he is not cooperating he might have to move out. Not only did Greg fail his supervising duties, but he actually committed a crime in supplying the alcohol. One can only be happy that the father of one of the guests considers the matter closed.

Padraig comment is certainly spot-on. It was kind of a shock for me to experience that in PA, one cannot buy alcohol in a regular super market, but only designated stores. The whole attitude in the US is different and one still feels the remnants of the prohibition era. I would say that this is largely due to the Puritans who moved here, and their religious beliefs forbidding alcohol usage. Roman Catholics on the other hand are not adverse to drinking, and I have many stories to tell of priests whom one can only describe as alcoholics.
The question arises whether Europe's approach in this matter is so enlightened. High rates of morbidity and mortality are due to alcohol usage, with more than tens of thousands of death each year caused by it in Europe alone. To me, it always seemed strange that alcohol is a socially acceptable drug, whereas say cannabis is illegal, although one might argue that it is not any more detrimental to public health. So I am sympathetic towards a hard-line stance.

Yet, 18smacked raises an important issue: All things forbidden hold a special appeal for youngsters testing their boundaries. If one has ever seen American college kids and their drinking escapades, one might question whether prohibitions lead to the desired outcome. When being away from parental supervision for the first time, all restraint is suddenly off. Seems that the parents missed teaching their kids why alcohol is bad if consumed in large quantities.

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AFinch

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Sherrif
Beaver wrote:As the saying goes: "As long as you live under my roof...". Greg should have a whipping coming, but I can't force him to accept one. I won't tolerate him being a bad influence for his younger brother, so if he is not cooperating he might have to move out. Not only did Greg fail his supervising duties, but he actually committed a crime in supplying the alcohol. One can only be happy that the father of one of the guests considers the matter closed.

Padraig comment is certainly spot-on. It was kind of a shock for me to experience that in PA, one cannot buy alcohol in a regular super market, but only designated stores. The whole attitude in the US is different and one still feels the remnants of the prohibition era. I would say that this is largely due to the Puritans who moved here, and their religious beliefs forbidding alcohol usage. Roman Catholics on the other hand are not adverse to drinking, and I have many stories to tell of priests whom one can only describe as alcoholics.
The question arises whether Europe's approach in this matter is so enlightened. High rates of morbidity and mortality are due to alcohol usage, with more than tens of thousands of death each year caused by it in Europe alone. To me, it always seemed strange that alcohol is a socially acceptable drug, whereas say cannabis is illegal, although one might argue that it is not any more detrimental to public health. So I am sympathetic towards a hard-line stance.

Yet, 18smacked raises an important issue: All things forbidden hold a special appeal for youngsters testing their boundaries. If one has ever seen American college kids and their drinking escapades, one might question whether prohibitions lead to the desired outcome. When being away from parental supervision for the first time, all restraint is suddenly off. Seems that the parents missed teaching their kids why alcohol is bad if consumed in large quantities.

I don't think this is an American problem, unlike the European members, or those with recent European backgrounds. Binge drinking on college campuses in the UK has been well referenced in journalism, novels, and films. On a personal level, I have a friend, now about 30, who I've known since he was 17, who was born, raised, and still lives in the UK. I specifically remember a frantic phone call from him. He had always been kind of a social misfit, and was finally supposed to "get lucky" with his date--it was all set until he puked on her shoes while very drunk. That was a big mood killer. There are plenty of alcoholics in the rest of the world. That said, even when I went to college, those with stricter parents were more likely to act out, whether it was by abusing alcohol, not having the sense to go to bed unless someone sent them, or not being able to manage doing homework and showing up to class without a hovering (not necessarily threatening) parent directing them.

Beaver

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Wrangler
AFinch wrote:
Beaver wrote:As the saying goes: "As long as you live under my roof...". Greg should have a whipping coming, but I can't force him to accept one. I won't tolerate him being a bad influence for his younger brother, so if he is not cooperating he might have to move out. Not only did Greg fail his supervising duties, but he actually committed a crime in supplying the alcohol. One can only be happy that the father of one of the guests considers the matter closed.

Padraig comment is certainly spot-on. It was kind of a shock for me to experience that in PA, one cannot buy alcohol in a regular super market, but only designated stores. The whole attitude in the US is different and one still feels the remnants of the prohibition era. I would say that this is largely due to the Puritans who moved here, and their religious beliefs forbidding alcohol usage. Roman Catholics on the other hand are not adverse to drinking, and I have many stories to tell of priests whom one can only describe as alcoholics.
The question arises whether Europe's approach in this matter is so enlightened. High rates of morbidity and mortality are due to alcohol usage, with more than tens of thousands of death each year caused by it in Europe alone. To me, it always seemed strange that alcohol is a socially acceptable drug, whereas say cannabis is illegal, although one might argue that it is not any more detrimental to public health. So I am sympathetic towards a hard-line stance.

Yet, 18smacked raises an important issue: All things forbidden hold a special appeal for youngsters testing their boundaries. If one has ever seen American college kids and their drinking escapades, one might question whether prohibitions lead to the desired outcome. When being away from parental supervision for the first time, all restraint is suddenly off. Seems that the parents missed teaching their kids why alcohol is bad if consumed in large quantities.

I don't think this is an American problem, unlike the European members, or those with recent European backgrounds.  Binge drinking on college campuses in the UK has been well referenced in journalism, novels, and films.  On a personal level, I have a friend, now about 30, who I've known since he was 17, who was born, raised, and still lives in the UK.  I specifically remember a frantic phone call from him.  He had always been kind of a social misfit, and was finally supposed to "get lucky" with his date--it was all set until he puked on her shoes while very drunk.  That was a big mood killer.  There are plenty of alcoholics in the rest of the world.  That said, even when I went to college, those with stricter parents were more likely to act out, whether it was by abusing alcohol, not having the sense to go to bed unless someone sent them, or not being able to manage doing homework and showing up to class without a hovering (not necessarily threatening) parent directing them.

I would respond that the British are quite distinct in this regard and well known across Europe for their drinking habits. When I was a student in the UK, there were still drinking societies on campus, whose members were known for their debauchery. In contrast to the American college kids, who would go on drinking sprees in their dorms while being in sweatpants, in the UK students would do so dressed in a suit after attending Formal Hall. Cool

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Jack

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Admin
Beaver wrote:I would respond that the British are quite distinct in this regard and well known across Europe for their drinking habits. When I was a student in the UK, there were still drinking societies on campus, whose members were known for their debauchery. In contrast to the American college kids, who would go on drinking sprees in their dorms while being in sweatpants, in the UK students would do so dressed in a suit after attending Formal Hall. Cool

And here we find stereotypes once again raising their nasty heads.

While I stayed home and started a business, I have many friends who went elsewhere for their education, and have made friends with more as time went on. There are a number of colleges who have groups of students gathering together, nicely dressed, eating fine food, and getting drunk on fine wine, aged whiskey, and craft beer. Likewise, I'm willing to bet there are plenty of people elsewhere who wear ratty clothes and swill whatever they can afford.

HOWEVER, it seems to me that this is getting a bit off topic. If we want to discuss drinking habits and laws in different countries, let's start a thread for that in Free Discussions. This is about a specific incident that happened in Tennessee, where the law doesn't allow for minors to be presented with alcohol except for religious purposes.

For myself, Texas law allows parents to provide alcohol to their children, and my kids do have an occasional drink. I think it's a good idea to have them deal with it at home, and to have some knowledge about it before they go away.


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squarecutter

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Sherrif
Beaver wrote:
AFinch wrote:
Beaver wrote:As the saying goes: "As long as you live under my roof...". Greg should have a whipping coming, but I can't force him to accept one. I won't tolerate him being a bad influence for his younger brother, so if he is not cooperating he might have to move out. Not only did Greg fail his supervising duties, but he actually committed a crime in supplying the alcohol. One can only be happy that the father of one of the guests considers the matter closed.

Padraig comment is certainly spot-on. It was kind of a shock for me to experience that in PA, one cannot buy alcohol in a regular super market, but only designated stores. The whole attitude in the US is different and one still feels the remnants of the prohibition era. I would say that this is largely due to the Puritans who moved here, and their religious beliefs forbidding alcohol usage. Roman Catholics on the other hand are not adverse to drinking, and I have many stories to tell of priests whom one can only describe as alcoholics.
The question arises whether Europe's approach in this matter is so enlightened. High rates of morbidity and mortality are due to alcohol usage, with more than tens of thousands of death each year caused by it in Europe alone. To me, it always seemed strange that alcohol is a socially acceptable drug, whereas say cannabis is illegal, although one might argue that it is not any more detrimental to public health. So I am sympathetic towards a hard-line stance.

Yet, 18smacked raises an important issue: All things forbidden hold a special appeal for youngsters testing their boundaries. If one has ever seen American college kids and their drinking escapades, one might question whether prohibitions lead to the desired outcome. When being away from parental supervision for the first time, all restraint is suddenly off. Seems that the parents missed teaching their kids why alcohol is bad if consumed in large quantities.

I don't think this is an American problem, unlike the European members, or those with recent European backgrounds.  Binge drinking on college campuses in the UK has been well referenced in journalism, novels, and films.  On a personal level, I have a friend, now about 30, who I've known since he was 17, who was born, raised, and still lives in the UK.  I specifically remember a frantic phone call from him.  He had always been kind of a social misfit, and was finally supposed to "get lucky" with his date--it was all set until he puked on her shoes while very drunk.  That was a big mood killer.  There are plenty of alcoholics in the rest of the world.  That said, even when I went to college, those with stricter parents were more likely to act out, whether it was by abusing alcohol, not having the sense to go to bed unless someone sent them, or not being able to manage doing homework and showing up to class without a hovering (not necessarily threatening) parent directing them.

I would respond that the British are quite distinct in this regard and well known across Europe for their drinking habits. When I was a student in the UK, there were still drinking societies on campus, whose members were known for their debauchery. In contrast to the American college kids, who would go on drinking sprees in their dorms while being in sweatpants, in the UK students would do so dressed in a suit after attending Formal Hall. Cool

You must have been at Oxford or Cambridge. Of course we are talking about the wealthy ones here knocking back expensive wines and cocktails. There is a problem with young men , many under age whacking back cheap lager on the streets and looking for fights. The rich kids do it to show everyone that they can and the poorer ones do it because it doesn't feel like there's much else to them.

It was hoped that relaxing licensing laws would bring about that continental style street cafe and to an extent it has and pub gardens are full of families in the summer. But yes there is a problem which wont go away

db105

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Trailboss
Jack's response works for me, although I'm not sure CP is the best option for a 21 year old, so I'm open to other ideas. However, there will be consequences for Greg in one form or the other. It must be with his agreement and cooperation. If he refuses to take responsibility and accept the consequences then it will be time to study what the best alternative is, including his finding another place to live. Hopefully he'll realize that he has acted wrong and it won't come to that.

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