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BOTD 06-20-2017 Returning to the Scene of the Crime- A Jack Production

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Skater

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Bransom Postmaster
RETURNING TO THE SCENE OF THE CRIME
A Jack Production

(Based on communication with DMK)


LYNN - 16
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Last month, your son, Lynn, got into serious trouble for a protest against animal cruelty.  It was with his friend, Matt.  You and Matt's dad considered using CP, but because of the length of time involved in deciding the issue, you decided against it, though Lynn was grounded for several weeks (getting less strict as time went on), and he had to pay back his court costs and other, related expenses.  The punishment for Matt was about the same.

Lynn has finally completed his grounding.  He didn't have to work today, so he told you he was going to go over to Matt's house and that he had a couple of errands to run.

About three hours later, you receive a call from the police.  Lynn had gone back to the same 'pay fishing pond' where he'd gotten into trouble the first time.  When he was arrested, he was also issued a criminal trespass warrant, which made it a Class B offense for him to return to the place, or be within 100 feet of it, within the next six months.

The officer explains to you that, while Lynn wasn't on the property, he was just outside it, putting up protest signs (something you'd pointed out would have been an acceptable way to protest when he pulled his first stunt.)  Lynn has admitted to putting up the signs, which proves he violated his warrant.

"A year ago, I would have arrested him without a second thought," the officer tells you.  "But last September, my own son, who's just a little older than Lynn, was arrested while protesting at a political rally.  Last year, I would have blamed you for being a bad parent, but now I realize how hard it can be for you to control him constantly, and for him to understand how bad this could effect him.  If it's okay with you, I'll send him home for you to handle, but I won't be able to do it again."

You gladly except his offer.  He puts Lynn on the phone, and you tell him to come straight home.

What does Lynn have to look forward to when he arrives home?


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db105

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Trailboss
Were we aware that being within 100 feet of the fishing pond was a criminal offense, even if he was outside? If not we really should have been aware. More to the point, was Lynn aware that he was committing a criminal offense?

If the answer to the last question is yes, the he is getting paddled and grounded again. If the answer is no, then we need to find out exactly what he can and can't do, and make sure he knows.

And I'm going to thank that police office a thousand times.

Editing: I just googled "Class B offense" and got this:  Class B is the second most serious felony class, usually involving grave attacks against a person or drug crimes. Examples include: Manslaughter (second degree intentional homicide) First degree reckless homicide.

WTF?

And do I need to chain Lynn's ankle to the house until he reaches his majority?

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Jack

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db105 wrote:Editing: I just googled "Class B offense" and got this:  Class B is the second most serious felony class, usually involving grave attacks against a person or drug crimes. Examples include: Manslaughter (second degree intentional homicide) First degree reckless homicide.

I'm not sure where you got that, Daniel. In Texas law, there are three degress of misdemeanor and five degrees of felony. Felonies are state jail, first, second and third degree, and capitol. Misdemeanor are Class A, B, and C, with A being the most serious. If I'd known it was otherwise in other places, I would have added clarification.


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db105

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Trailboss
Jack wrote:
I'm not sure where you got that, Daniel.  

I got it from here:
http://www.attorneys.com/criminal-defense/penalty-for-class-b-felony
It's the first result I got when googling Class B offense.

The results when I google class B misdemeanor are much less horrible, although still bad enough.

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Jack

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db105 wrote:
Jack wrote:
I'm not sure where you got that, Daniel.  

I got it from here:
http://www.attorneys.com/criminal-defense/penalty-for-class-b-felony
It's the first result I got when googling Class B offense.

The results when I google class B misdemeanor are much less horrible, although still bad enough.

Same here, but there are also several results for Class B misdemeanor on the first page. Oh well, live and learn.


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db105

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Trailboss
OK, so was Lynn aware that he was committing a misdemeanor or was he under the impression that what he was doing was legal, since he was outside the fishing pond?

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18Smacked

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YK, I can paddle a kid forever, but at a certain point, I need to let the kid intuit the consequences of what he is doing. That is, he needs to internalize what he is doing is wrong, and why, and what will happen if the behavior is maintained.

So, the question here, quite honestly, as I see it, is whether there is any real point to CP here. And, I think that there is a far more effective way to have him understand what he is doing is wrong, frankly. I believe I would have the boys buy an hour of consultation time from a criminal attorney so that he can explain the consequences to the children. Clearly, no matter what I tell my son, and his friend, it is not hitting home with them. But, if an attorney, who deals with these matters day in and day out tells them, well, maybe then, it will be believed.

I will have them see the lawyer and have him explain matters to them, at their expense, and after that, if they do not understand, I will let logical and natural consequences prevail.

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AFinch

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18Smacked wrote:YK, I can paddle a kid forever, but at a certain point, I need to let the kid intuit the consequences of what he is doing. That is, he needs to internalize what he is doing is wrong, and why, and what will happen if the behavior is maintained.

So, the question here, quite honestly, as I see it, is whether there is any real point to CP here. And, I think that there is a far more effective way to have him understand what he is doing is wrong, frankly. I believe I would have the boys buy an hour of consultation time from a criminal attorney so that he can explain the consequences to the children. Clearly, no matter what I tell my son, and his friend, it is not hitting home with them. But, if an attorney, who deals with these matters day in and day out tells them, well, maybe then, it will be believed.

I will have them see the lawyer and have him explain matters to them, at their expense, and after that, if they do not understand, I will let logical and natural consequences prevail.

When this matter was first brought up, and again specifically in this scenario, Lynn was told that protesting outside was an appropriate response to the situation. I think Daniel has it right--did he (and I) know about the trespass warrant, and specifically the 100 foot proscription? If so, he may wish he'd gotten arrested again rather than having to deal with me. From what I know of Lynn, though, I can't believe he's that stupid that he'd have gone back to what he knew would be another legal situation after having dodged the first bullet. And in that case, he, and I, and perhaps the attorney will sit down and discuss what exactly he may and may not do under the terms of his previous warrant.

Zyngaru

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Greenhorn
I Know Not!

Honestly! What can I do? I sure don't see spanking as a proper course of action.

I also do not like the idea of relegating this over to the judicial system.

There comes a time in a boy's life, that he has to stand up for himself, but not at 16 and not something like this.

The problem I see, is that Lynn believes what he is doing is right. As long as he believes he is in the right, there is nothing I or anyone else can do to change his behavior.

So like I said in the beginning. I do not know what to do?

Kat

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Editor Extraordinaire
Zyngaru wrote:The problem I see, is that Lynn believes what he is doing is right.

This is the crux of the problem. We train children to develop a moral code. We teach them about civil disobedience. We teach them how people such as Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King, Jr went to jail. We tell them how few people have stood up to be counted against genocides and totalitarian regimes. While catfish may seem unimportant to the adults around Lynn, his own conscience is what he listens to.

I don't think corporal punishment is going to be helpful here. Lynn needs to understand fully the consequences of disobeying the law. I need to help him explore ways to stop the abuse he sees without jeopardizing his own freedom and future. At the same time, I don't want to teach him to disregard his conscience -- just to persuade him that breaking the law is a last rather than first resort.

Kat

David M. Katz

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Marshall
For those who have asked and for others who were curious: this BOTD is NOT based on actual events. Jack sent me the idea and asked how I felt about a fictional sequel to the real event. I thought it was a great idea. Lynn did not return to the scene of the crime.

The actual update:

Lynn and Matt finished their restrictions out with no incident. Both boys seem to have come to an understanding of what went wrong. I have said on this forum before that, because Lynn needs to concentrate on school, I did not want him to be employed outside of his babysitting gig. I have allowed Lynn to get a job for the summer. (I may consider letting him stay on for the weekends once school starts.) He works with Matt as a bagger/lot boy at Publix. Lynn has almost paid back the financial obligations related to the incident.

As of this writing, the fish are still hungry and Lynn and Matt are not in legal trouble.

---------------------------------

My response to the scenario:

Had this really happened, I would most likely take the course that Kier and Kat have expressed. If Lynn were that 'dedicated' to this cause then I am not sure what good CP would do. Although I might get some personal satisfaction from it as a stress reliever.

So, we have a K club.


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MemoryMan

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Sherrif
I dont see how I can better Kat's response.

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db105

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Trailboss
I'm glad the scenario is fictional, by the way!

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Jack

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Admin
I view this the same as many of you, but also differently.

Where I'm the same:

Having dealt with a criminal trespass warrant*, it is actually a ticket that an officer fills out and hands to you, so yes, Lynn knew about it.  The real question becomes, did he know about all the details.  My answer is, if he's mature enough to protest, then he's mature enough to make sure he understands what he's doing and the ramifications of doing it.

The fact that he was doing what I suggested as an alternative doesn't hold water, since he wasn't doing it as an alternative, but after he'd already gotten in trouble, so the situation was different.

I'm not sure about making him pay for a lawyer, since we've already done that (last/RL scenario, not mentioned here), but we need to do something to get this boy to think about consequences, who's legally responsible for him the next two years, and how to channel his intentions in positive, legal, and safe directions.

Where I'm different:

Lynn has been dishonest with me.  Running errands is swinging by the supermarket or Office Max.  I suppose someone could call putting up protest signs on a lake that's not especially close to us in that way, but they'd be abusing the word if they did, in my opinion.  This is something Lynn pretty well knew I would have stopped, which is why he didn't talk to me about it.

Lynn is going to be losing his keys.  I won't forbid him to drive, but he's going to be giving me an exact itinerary for a while, and I might make him pay for a GPS, so I can be sure he's following it.  

And I think a few swats would be an appropriate way to seal the deal.

Then I'll make a real effort to help him find a positive, legal way to do some pro-animal work.

DB105 wrote:I'm glad the scenario is fictional, by the way!

I'm honestly not even sure where this idea came from.  I was just driving and thinking about the forum when it kind of popped into my head. Instead of formatting the entire thing, like I'd normally do, I wrote up a precis and sent it to David, because I wasn't sure he'd go along with it or not.


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