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BOTD 06-22-2017 Should "Pele get Paddled? - An 18 Smacked Production

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Skater

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Bransom Postmaster
Should "Pele" Get Paddled?
An 18Smacked Production


Your 13 year-old son, Scotty, is a soccer phenomenon! He is a tremendous player and is often picked to be the youngest player in a team's age bracket. Nonetheless, he is never intimidated by the other players, and drives the ball relentlessly to the goal racking up an impressive record of defensive plays and goals, As a result, he is regularly invited to join a "travelling team" that has even taken him to a number of foreign countries. And that has brought up this latest issue with him.

Scotty - 13
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The newest travelling team he was invited to join went to England, Spain, France and Germany over twenty days. (You live in the United States.) Before he left for the airport, you had a long discussion with Scotty and he promised to mind the escorts and coaches, and be on his best behavior. When he said that, you took out your trusty paddle, and informed him that if you had any negative reports when they returned, you may not even wait to get home before using the paddle. Your son blushed, and agreed to behave.

Imagine your surprise when  on the eighth day of the tour, you got an email from an escort who was a friend of yours, saying that Scott and three other boys had gone off to tour Paris during a free period. (This was allowed, as long as they informed someone where they were going and how they were getting there, and that they return to be ready for any scrimmages, team meetings or meals.) However, they were due to report back for a team meeting where key plays were reviewed, and strategies for their next game were discussed. They missed the entire meeting, so the coaches decided that these boys would not play in the next game. As Scott and the players he was with were the core first-string players, the team lost that game and suffered in the standings of the tournament for which they came.

You never applied double jeopardy when Scott got paddled at school. You simply figured that the school's punishment was sufficient to get the message across to your son, and so the paddle wasn't used again when he got home from school that day.


Is this a different situation justifying your punishment when he gets home, and if so, how and why? If you do punish Scott, what will you do? Or, should you simply let the team's sanctions (and harm to his reputation) suffice?


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Skater

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I think a paddling is called for


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AFinch

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Sherrif
He missed his game. His (and his friends') actions cost his team a win, which is likely to result in additional sanctions from team mates. Making him wait another two weeks for a paddling as double jeopardy seems cruel and unusual punishment to me. I will be skype/facetiming with Scotty, though, and will let him know that if he pulls another similar stunt, he'll be on the next plane home.

Y Lee Coyote

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Deputy
I need a lot more information about what happened.  Did they get lost?  Were the others (older boys) insistent that they do something (and thus be late)?  Could he find his way back by himself in a strange land?

Why wasn’t there communication to prevent all this -- a reminder to get back for practice.  What group of kids would not have cell phones to travel?  I note the scenario does not require they know how to return.

I’m not into sports but to have new strategies on a road trip does not sound like proper coaching to me.  (They should have had a repertoire to select from before they left the States.)

Sloppy planning lead to the coach not fielding the best possible team and everyone suffered.

Double jeopardy is an outrageous injustice and it use is a sin of the highest order.

Does one even have to talk about how the kids all feel?

Y.

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squarecutter

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Im going to take the Coaches cue on this. It may be that probably being ostracisd by teammates for letting them down , missing a game(totally the right action taken by the coaches) may be enough. A truly natural consequence. In the long term will he be invited to another tour. I hope he comes home looking crushed in which case he might get away with a lecture. Woe betide if he tries to blow it off

David M. Katz

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Marshall
1. I think it has been handled already.

2. Too much time will have passed.

The paddle stays put away.


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Kat

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db105

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Trailboss
I would like to know why they missed the meeting. Did they lose track of time, miscalculated the time it would take them to return, got lost, were too busy because they were visiting a brothel? Depending on the reason I will be more or less upset. Anyway, I'm a bit surprised that 13-year-olds are allowed to roam Paris on their own.

Their only punishment was missing the game? Well, even that might be enough, taking into account that they'll feel bad about it and their mates won't be happy.

Unless there are aggravating circumstances, I think the team punishment will be enough.

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ivor

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Marshall
In answer to one of YLC's points, soccer is not as predictable a game as US football. Therefore it would be quite normal to hold team meetings and even practices to decide how they were going to play against their next opponent. Team formations can be changed and the style of various players allowed for within those changes.

I'm going to go with Skater. You made the promise and he understood you meant it. This is one time I consider the statute of limitations doesn't apply.

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MemoryMan

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Sherrif
Think I'll sign up to a competing SIM club.

The coaches could have handled the situation better though.

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Jack

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ivor wrote:In answer to one of YLC's points, soccer is not as predictable a game as US football. Therefore it would be quite normal to hold team meetings and even practices to decide how they were going to play against their next opponent. Team formations can be changed and the style of various players allowed for within those changes.

Sorry, but even in American football, it's typical to have team meetings to discuss these issues before each game, because each team is different, and you need to adjust to each individual team. Of course, Y Lee's point isn't applicable anyway, since the scenario says nothing about new strategies. All teams have techniques they don't use in some games, and the idea is to know which is the best approach for a particular game.

Also, while I know we use the term 'double jeopardy', as we use it here, has nothing to do with the actual term, and I don't see anything inherently bad about it, much less that it's some grave injustice. A parent has information other people won't have. While I admit that I disagree with it being used indiscriminately, there are cases where another person might not have been aware of aggravating circumstances, or where they might have been limited in what they could apply, and a parent feels more is required.

In this particular case, I am unhappy with everything that's happened, and I do have a lot of questions. I don't think the paddle is the best answer, but I intend to chew his hide up one side and down the other, unless he has a very good excuse for missing the meeting. And if he does have a good excuse, I'm going to be left wondering about this coach.


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Peter_Z

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Wrangler
I think too - when I have announced a paddling and then when the case for it happend,
then I am going with Skater.
So the boy has to expect a paddling on his return.

Y Lee Coyote

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Deputy
This scenario is, like most, vague on many points.  That is understandable and acceptable since the wonderful volunteers who do them have limited time and can not possibly consider all associated details.  In a similar way my responses are brief and imperfect.

I would like to expand a bit.

In every team sport the coach must decisions about how to play against the next opponent.  However, I see that as a selection process from a repertoire of plays and not the creation of new plays.  Since the meeting missed was NOT a practice session but a lecture I can not see new play being introduced for that would mean the team never practiced the play.  That is a recipe for a loss.

For the coach to bench four first line players for missing a meeting (not a practice) which is 35% of the team on an international trip is unreasonable and counter to team unity.  It sounds like the coach was miffed that his lecture was missed and did not care about the larger objective.  Surely the four miscreants (and perhaps the others) could have had the necessary discussion in the evening even at the cost of missing some planned tour.  What are the priorities?

There was mention of the youths sharing plans of going but not returning.  Surely an escort should have made sure of the return plan to assure that they got to the meeting.

Why wasn’t that important meeting scheduled in the morning so there would not be such a time pressure to return.  Going touring after would have been much better.  I can just imagine the trip itinerary: 9-13 At liberty; 13-14 Lunch; 14-15 At team meeting.

Did the four get lost?  Take the wrong train/bus?  Decide to snub the coach on an important trip?  If Scott wanted to return but the three older youths did not should he have tried to navigate by himself?

And what about the rest of the team -- did they just sit about the hotel?  Did other groups get back on time?  Again no info.

The question of the youths going by themselves was brought up.  Some of this was discussed in the BOTD 5-31 http://bransomtx.forumotion.net/t8295-botd-05-31-2017-the-crime-of-the-century-a-y-lee-coyote-inspired-production   In my discussions with David, we were both shocked about the age kids are allow on their own.  Here in NYC eight-year-olds ride the subway to/from school by themselves.  Where Dave is -- middle schoolers are far more restricted.  The answer is very dependant on where the group is from and even if any were competent in the local language.  They probably would have less trouble in Germany than France or Spain.

And now back to the question.

A paddling at the airport is beyond the pale no matter what.  A review of the trip is primary interaction for that what is important in the relationship with my son.  He just had a long international adventure and even asking about a vague report of misconduct must wait.

Y.

Edit_ corrected tour schedule



Last edited by Y Lee Coyote on Thu Jun 22, 2017 3:06 pm; edited 1 time in total

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MemoryMan

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Sherrif
Y Lee Coyote wrote:This scenario is, like most, vague on many points.  That is understandable and acceptable since the wonderful volunteers who do them have limited time and can not possibly consider all associated details.  In a similar way my responses are brief and imperfect.

I would like to expand a bit.

In every team sport the coach must decisions about how to play against the next opponent.  However, I see that as a selection process from a repertoire of plays and not the creation of new plays.  Since the meeting missed was NOT a practice session but a lecture I can not see new play being introduced for that would mean the team never practiced the play.  That is a recipe for a loss.

For the coach to bench four first line players for missing a meeting (not a practice) which is 35% of the team on an international trip is unreasonable and counter to team unity.  It sounds like the coach was miffed that his lecture was missed and did not care about the larger objective.  Surely the four miscreants (and perhaps the others) could have had the necessary discussion in the evening even at the cost of missing some planned tour.  What are the priorities?

There was mention of the youths sharing plans of going but not returning.  Surely an escort should have made sure of the return plan to assure that they got to the meeting.

Why wasn’t that important meeting scheduled in the morning so there would not be such a time pressure to return.  Going touring after would have been much better.  I can just imagine the trip itinerary: 9-13 At liberty; 13-14 Lunch; 14-15 At liberty.

Did the four get lost?  Take the wrong train/bus?  Decide to snub the coach on an important trip?  If Scott wanted to return but the three older youths did not should he have tried to navigate by himself?

And what about the rest of the team -- did they just sit about the hotel?  Did other groups get back on time?  Again no info.

The question of the youths going by themselves was brought up.  Some of this was discussed in the BOTD 5-31 http://bransomtx.forumotion.net/t8295-botd-05-31-2017-the-crime-of-the-century-a-y-lee-coyote-inspired-production   In my discussions with David, we were both shocked about the age kids are allow on their own.  Here in NYC eight-year-olds ride the subway to/from school by themselves.  Where Dave is -- middle schoolers are far more restricted.  The answer is very dependant on where the group is from and even if any were competent in the local language.  They probably would have less trouble in Germany than France or Spain.

And now back to the question.

A paddling at the airport is beyond the pale no matter what.  A review of the trip is primary interaction for that what is important in the relationship with my son.  He just had a long international adventure and even asking about a vague report of misconduct must wait.

Y.

Wow! and so spot on.

As, in an earlier part of my life, I have been such a coach, responsible for the welfare and discipline of kids I was taking away to sleepover tournaments located in distant parts (I wouldn't do it now in these litigious days) I was tempted to write my own similar treatise but chickened out to post a one liner.

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Y Lee Coyote

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MemoryMan wrote:Wow! and so spot on.
Thank you.

Incidentally, I forgot to mention one thing assuming this is contemporary -- they should have been equipped with mobile phones both for routine matters and asking for help if lost or reporting delays. And doing translations.

Y.

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18Smacked

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Cowboy
Well, first, I will admit that I had not intended to omit any necessary information, but neither could I have thought through all the what-ifs that might have arisen here.

I suppose, in retrospect, I should have stated that the kids as a group did get lost and as a result were delayed in their return. The omission was not intention, though. And, I do have a German friend who has told me that kids of teen ages are much more independent with the use of trains and buses than most of those in the U.S.

I also now realize that by taking all the key players out of the next game, I mis-played how a true soccer coach likely would have handled this situation. That was my lack of soccer coaching experience displaying itself, and I feel bad about this, now.

Of course, I recall my youth (before teen years even) with a lot of fond memories, spending almost all day outside in some "woods" near our house. Today, kids hardly ever spend any time outdoors, both because of the popularity of electronic gaming as well as parental over-protectiveness. I wonder if maybe that is the best thing for the kids, though....

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MemoryMan

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Sherrif
Thanks for the BOTD 18S, Intentional or not it sparked a discussion and revived some memories.

The exact situation would not have arisen during my life as a coach since I was coaching an individual sport.  

I had very little disciplinary problem since the kids (range 9 to 17) were doing something they WANTED to do and travelling to away tournaments, sans parents, was a highlight for them.  However since not every kid can win every tournament I had at times, in addition to technical analysis, to mentor them in distressed and emotional states. -- all part of the job.

Away from the actual competition I operated with two simple rules.

1, Do not leave the group without first checking out with me.

2, Do not behave in a way that leads anybody to complain to me about you.

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ivor

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Marshall
18Smacked wrote:
I also now realize that by taking all the key players out of the next game, I mis-played how a true soccer coach likely would have handled this situation. That was my lack of soccer coaching experience displaying itself, and I feel bad about this, now.



Don't! It is quite possible that the coach knew enough about the team they were due to play next that he was sufficiently confident he could drop his four star players and still win.

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Jack

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Admin
ivor wrote:
18Smacked wrote:
I also now realize that by taking all the key players out of the next game, I mis-played how a true soccer coach likely would have handled this situation. That was my lack of soccer coaching experience displaying itself, and I feel bad about this, now.



Don't!  It is quite possible that the coach knew enough about the team they were due to play next that he was sufficiently confident he could drop his four star players and still win.

I'll go further than that. There are some coaches who are only interested in winning, and those coaches wouldn't have taken their star players out of the game. There are also coaches who try to raise responsible young men, and those coaches would have taken the boys out.

Now, in a case where the boys missed the meeting because they got lost, I would argue that his response was overbearing, but that's not the question. As a father, I wouldn't consider 'getting lost' to be a reason for punishment in any case.


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Jack

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Y Lee Coyote wrote:The question of the youths going by themselves was brought up.  Some of this was discussed in the BOTD 5-31 http://bransomtx.forumotion.net/t8295-botd-05-31-2017-the-crime-of-the-century-a-y-lee-coyote-inspired-production   In my discussions with David, we were both shocked about the age kids are allow on their own.  Here in NYC eight-year-olds ride the subway to/from school by themselves.  Where Dave is -- middle schoolers are far more restricted.  The answer is very dependant on where the group is from and even if any were competent in the local language.  They probably would have less trouble in Germany than France or Spain.

I can tell you what part of this is - part of it is that most of the United States doesn't have great public transport. In Bransom, we have two buses that mostly run for the benefit of the college. We've used public transportation in Dallas and Fort Worth, and it's great for some areas (parking and riding to Fair Park during the state fair, or getting from the Stock Yards or downtown from Will Rogers during the Stock Show), but there are places that it's impossible to get or that would take hours to arrive.


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AFinch

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Sherrif
You are correct. If you live in NYC, having a car is actually a liability--it is easier to get around by subway and bus (or foot) than to drive, and with traffic, it's usually quicker as well.

I'm currently in DC, a city with a "great public transport system", which isn't really that great unless you're located near and going to somewhere near, a metro stop.

At home, there is essentially NO public transportation. And when I lived in SD, on a couple of occasions, my car was being used by someone else, and I needed to take public transportation to the marina from which I sailed, which is located directly across the street from the main airport--my normal 30 minute drive took 3 and a half hours each way with 3 transfers.

I also agree that "getting lost" ought not to be a reason for punishment, though getting lost when you weren't authorized to go anywhere would be.

Y Lee Coyote

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Jack wrote:I can tell you what part of this is - part of it is that most of the United States doesn't have great public transport.
That is, unfortunately, correct.

Certainly kids who have been using public transport for year would be better equipped to navigate a new system. My world changed when at the tender age of 13.5 I started high school in the next county (still the same city though) some eight air miles away. School buses were not for high school so it was the public transport -- the subway -- that I used. That opened up the world for I could get everywhere on my own. How could my parents object since I had to use the system every school day?

Our transit passes (we got reduced fare) were not even specified for the closest station but just "14 St East" where there were four stations and at least ten lines to chose from. The school did not expect us to go directly home every day. A very different world than Jack described above.

Y.

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18Smacked

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Cowboy
To follow-up to all who supported my posting, I wanted to thank you for the support. As I did write, I never did coach any kids sports teams. I was once a Big Brother to a fatherless boy who, at age 11 was in Little League, and I got forced into being an Umpire at a game once when there was no one else who could/would do it. (I did have a long chat with my Little Brother before I started the umpiring, and explained how I sure did not want to do this, but I was not wanting the game to be cancelled, either, and that I could not play favorites. So, I had to "call them as I saw them." Thankfully there were no close plays!)

I truly try to come up with BOTD scenarios that might lend themselves to nice, thoughtful discussions, and in this case in particular, it does look like I succeeded.

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MemoryMan

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Sherrif
18Smacked wrote:

I truly try to come up with BOTD scenarios that might lend themselves to nice, thoughtful discussions, and in this case in particular, it does look like I succeeded.

Sure Did

In conclusion, wearing my coaches hat.  I always preferred to settle discipline issues "in house."  Parents would only become aware of an incident if it had been serious enough to warrant a temporary ban.  In RL due to becoming used to mentoring kids in stressful situations there were odd times when they wanted to discuss their problem parents with me, thus enabling me to calmly give them an adult perspective on their situation.

As the parent in the scenario I would only take action if the coach himself raised the issue with me.

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Adric

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Cowboy
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